Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: 57:29, Attn Alen
Alen wrote:
As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Respectfully.
I need assistance of someone who speaks Arabic fluently.
Can you tell me what The God means in 57:29 where it says:So that the followers of the Scripture should know that they have no power over God's grace, and that all grace is in God's hand. He bestows it upon whomever He wills. God is Possessor of Infinite Grace.
The thing in the bold.
God doesn't have a hand, right, but can someone who speaks Arabic better then me, tell me, what doe sit say in Arabic and maybe i'll understand it then.
Thanks and may The Almighty God stops the war in the Middle East.
As salamu alaykum wr wb.
Salam Alen
there is no question that Allah has hands, this is what he told us, see the following verse:
(Allah) said: "O Iblis! What prevents thee from prostrating thyself to one whom I have created with my hands? Art thou haughty? Or art thou one of the high (and mighty) ones?" [The Quran ; 38:75]
قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَن تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ أَسْتَكْبَرْتَ أَمْ كُنتَ مِنَ الْعَالِينَ (75)
-> Clearly from the above bro that Allah is telling us that He created Adam with HIS HANDS, therefore He must have hands, however I agree that it can mean metaphorically power but as far as I can see from the Arabic context, it can never mean that because Allah told us zillions of times about more other MIGHTY things that He created and He never used the word hand with it, like the heaven and earth, HE NEVER SAID THAT HE CREATED THEM WITH HIS HANDS
This is a concrete evidence bro that in 38:75 "My Hands" can't mean "My Power" otherwise He should have used it with the more mighty things He created that needs more might and power to be created, in fact Allah told us that creating the heaven and earth indeed is more mighty than creating us:
Assuredly the creation of the heavens and the earth is a greater (matter) than the creation of men: Yet most men understand not. [The Quran ; 40:57]
لَخَلْقُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ أَكْبَرُ مِنْ خَلْقِ النَّاسِ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (57)
-> See bro, ''?'¬' Assuredly the creation of the heavens and the earth is a greater (matter) than the creation of men''?'¬', and in all locations where Allah told us that He created the heaven and earth, He never told us ''?'¬????????With His hands''?'¬', how come if ''?'¬????????His hands''?'¬' means ''?'¬????????His might and power''?'¬' and the creation of the heaven and earth needs more might and power than creating a man?
-> The problem here bro that many confused Muslims trying to say about Allah what they don't know they submitted to Satan who ordered them to say on Allah what they don't know and they obeyed his orders, this is called SHIRK bro and you will see many like those on many web sites , so I advice you bro to seek knowledge from those who have not from those who think they have it, it is easy to track those who think they have it, simply by looking at what they claim and compare it with what Allah says about Himself, and sure Allah will always have the upper hand, and I used hand here as a metaphor to mean the might and power of Allah, LOL
-> Anyway bro, the same verse above tells us this very fact that is evident on many so called Islamic web site, see, Yet most men understand not.
Take care bro
Posted:
Fri 20 Oct, 2006 11:34 am
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Lower for them the wing of kindness and humility and say, "My Lord! Bestow upon them Your Mercy as they raised me since I was little."[quote]
Ahmed, using your logic, doesn't this verse say that kindness and humility have wings? Nowehere else is it mentioned that kindness and humility have wings, so this must be taken literally.
Posted:
Sun 22 Oct, 2006 2:23 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
Lower for them the wing of kindness and humility and say, "My Lord! Bestow upon them Your Mercy as they raised me since I was little."
Thanks bro for bringing this verse about the parents, hmmm, see man, this is what pissed me off big times on FM, seeing how the non Arabic speakers manipulate my language that I talk since I learnt how to talk, as well I'm not an average Arabic speaker, as you know and as I stated many times that I was a solid student of the language for many years and even competed with uni students while I was a high school student and I always used to win in the Arabic language competition, I was actually recommended by many teachers to be the one who competes under the name of the school against those older uni students, this makes it easy for me to spot many mistakes by the non Arabic speakers when they talk about my language
What you will feel if me as an ignorant Urdu language speaker come to you and suggest to you that what you know about your language is wrong, will you take me seriously while I speak no urdu word?
Now back to you point, see, I stated this many times to many dumb deaf and blind Arabic language ignorant on FM, but do they listen?, hmmm, I don't think so because they keep repeating their baseless arguments after they have been refuted fair and square with compelling proofs
Now you know that in any language there are different meaning words that have the same bloody identical letters, this does not made the two words one, or a meaning of one can be swapped with the other within any context, this is ridiculous bro, I agree it will be harder to know what the word means if we have identical letter words, but this confusion will only occur if you study the word on its own after stripping it from its sentence, only ignorant do that and it applies on any language for sure, not just Arabic, let me prove my point with the word '???????????¬Janah
The word can mean many things:
1) Sort of a location or a place, like A HOSPITAL WING, in fact we the Arabs use the same word '???????????¬Janah to refer to a hospital wing '???????????¬A Place , in this case its use is mostly in singular format, unless we are talking about many hospital wings at the same time but as far as I know it is very rare even in the English language, therefore you will find that use mostly if not all the times in a singular format, this is what the verse you brought in means metaphorically "a place of respect and kindeness" and many other verses indeed mean the same, it means '???????????¬an area of as far as the context goes, let's look at a few verses that gives us that context which is the only one to control the meaning of the identical letters words as I explained earlier:
Move thy hand into thy bosom, and it will come forth white without stain (or harm), and draw thy hand close to thy side (to guard) against fear. Those are the two credentials from thy Lord to Pharaoh and his Chiefs: for truly they are a people rebellious and wicked. [The Quran ; 28:32]
اسْلُكْ يَدَكَ فِي جَيْبِكَ تَخْرُجْ بَيْضَاء مِنْ غَيْرِ سُوءٍ وَاضْمُمْ إِلَيْكَ جَنَاحَكَ مِنَ الرَّهْبِ فَذَانِكَ بُرْهَانَانِ مِن رَّبِّكَ إِلَى فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَئِهِ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا قَوْمًا فَاسِقِينَ (32)
-> See, the word Janah in here is referring to a place : draw thy hand close to thy side , it is also worth noting that the word is singular, therefore it can't mean the literal wing, because we need bloody two wings at least to fly, please come and fly with me, I will take ya beyond your dreams, LOL
-> Can I ask you a question bro, how many wings the Boeing 747 has?, hmmm please don't say two, because it also has another two at the back, i.e. it has 4 wings to fly, the bottom line bro is ,simply you need TWO WINGS at least to fly
In the following example I will bring the 3 most popular translations:
YUSUFALI: And lower thy wing to the Believers who follow thee.
PICKTHAL: And lower thy wing (in kindness) unto those believers who follow thee.
SHAKIR: And be kind to him who follows you of the believers. [The Quran ; 26:215]
وَاخْفِضْ جَنَاحَكَ لِمَنِ اتَّبَعَكَ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (215)
-> Again in the above verse the word Janah must be referring to a place or an area, like the top part of the body, the torso being lowered, it is only a metaphor to show respect and kindness, it can't mean the literal wing that is used for flying because mister Waleed we need at least TWO WINGS to fly, and the word Janah here is singular, so from the above 3 translations, I will throw Yusuf Ali and Pickthal ones in the rubbish bin and will uphold Shakir's one
An identical example to the above is below:
YUSUFALI: Strain not thine eyes. (Wistfully) at what We have bestowed on certain classes of them, nor grieve over them: but lower thy wing (in gentleness) to the believers.
PICKTHAL: Strain not thine eyes toward that which We cause some wedded pairs among them to enjoin, and be not grieved on their account, and lower thy wing (in tenderness) for the believers.
SHAKIR: Do not strain your eyes after what We have given certain classes of them to enjoy, and do not grieve for them, and make yourself gentle to the believers. [The Quran ; 15:88]
لاَ تَمُدَّنَّ عَيْنَيْكَ إِلَى مَا مَتَّعْنَا بِهِ أَزْوَاجًا مِّنْهُمْ وَلاَ تَحْزَنْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَاخْفِضْ جَنَاحَكَ لِلْمُؤْمِنِينَ (88)
-> See how we have to throw Yusuf Ali and Pickthal translations in the rubbish bin and will uphold Shakir's one, the word Janah is again singular, bro can an airplane fly with one wing?
Another identical example is this:
YUSUFALI: "Now draw thy hand close to thy side: It shall come forth white (and shining), without harm (or stain),- as another Sign,-
PICKTHAL: And thrust thy hand within thine armpit, it will come forth white without hurt. (That will be) another token.
SHAKIR: And press your hand to your side, it shall come out white without evil: another sign: [The Quran ; 20:22]
وَاضْمُمْ يَدَكَ إِلَى جَنَاحِكَ تَخْرُجْ بَيْضَاء مِنْ غَيْرِ سُوءٍ آيَةً أُخْرَى (22)
-> What is not identical though is why the hell Yusuf Ali and Pickthal didn't translate the singular word Janah as they did before "wing"? , it seems they sensed that many Muslims will throw their silly translation for the other two verses in the rubbish bin
Let's look at an example where the word Janah MUST mean wing to fly with, we should expect it not to be singular the least:
There is not an animal in the earth, nor a flying creature flying on two wings, but they are peoples like unto you. We have neglected nothing in the Book (of Our decrees). Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.
-> See bro, the word Janah is dual, haha, so it can mean the literal meaning of wings because we need two wings at least to fly mister Waleed: nor a flying creature flying on two wings,, وَلاَ طَائِرٍ يَطِيرُ بِجَنَاحَيْهِ
Now let's look at a new meaning for the word '???????????¬Janah with a dummah on the first letter pronounced "Jonah" that was used 24 times in the Quran to express a different meaning, this will make it by far the common meaning of the word Janah:
It is no sin in you that you enter uninhabited houses wherein you have your necessaries; and Allah knows what you do openly and what you hide. [The Quran ; 24:29]
لَّيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَن تَدْخُلُوا بُيُوتًا غَيْرَ مَسْكُونَةٍ فِيهَا مَتَاعٌ لَّكُمْ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تُبْدُونَ وَمَا تَكْتُمُونَ (29)
-> 24 times the word was used to mean '???????????¬a sin, therefore this is a clear evidence that the word can mean many things, what worth to note is this, when it is used to express a place or an area of something or a sin it always said in SINGULAR form as seen above, while for the literal meaning of flying it has to be at least DUAL as we have seen in 6:38, this is confirmed when we look at the verse describing the angels wings:
Praise be to Allah, Who created (out of nothing) the heavens and the earth, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,- two, or three, or four: He adds to Creation as He pleases: for Allah has power over all things. [The Quran ; 35:1]
الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ فَاطِرِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ جَاعِلِ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا أُولِي أَجْنِحَةٍ مَّثْنَى وَثُلَاثَ وَرُبَاعَ يَزِيدُ فِي الْخَلْقِ مَا يَشَاء إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ (1)
-> Subhan Allah, this verse should demolish the silly argument presented by many Arabic language ignorant, firstly when Allah described the angels He stated that they have WINGS, in plural, Who made the angels, messengers with wings,, جَاعِلِ الْمَلَائِكَةِ رُسُلًا أُولِي أَجْنِحَةٍ, then He even stated the number of those wings STARTING WITH THE NUMBER TWO: two, or three, or four, مَّثْنَى وَثُلَاثَ وَرُبَاعَ, see bro you need at least two wings to fly, will you come and fly with me bro?
Now let me ask you dear brother, if Janah in 35:1 means something else but wings, sort of a metaphor of power, kindeness, respect etc etc, why the hell you need 2, or 3 or 4 powers, kindeness, respects, etcs etcs? :lol:
Finally here the same word Janah expressed as a verb and clearly it means heading to a direction or inclining to, it can't mean to fly:
And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing. [The Quran ; 8:61]
وَإِن جَنَحُواْ لِلسَّلْمِ فَاجْنَحْ لَهَا وَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْعَلِيمُ (61)
Bro I have to say it to you, this argument is slam dunked
phoenix1 wrote:
Ahmed, using your logic, doesn't this verse say that kindness and humility have wings?
Let's look at the verse you used for your argument:
YUSUFALI: And, out of kindness, lower to them the wing of humility, and say: My Lord! bestow on them thy Mercy even as they cherished me in childhood.
PICKTHAL: And lower unto them the wing of submission through mercy, and say: My Lord! Have mercy on them both as they did care for me when I was little.
SHAKIR: And make yourself submissively gentle to them with compassion, and say: O my Lord! have compassion on them, as they brought me up (when I was) little. [The Quran ; 17:24]
وَاخْفِضْ لَهُمَا جَنَاحَ الذُّلِّ مِنَ الرَّحْمَةِ وَقُل رَّبِّ ارْحَمْهُمَا كَمَا رَبَّيَانِي صَغِيرًا (24)
-> There is no doubt that the word Janah can't mean '???????????¬wings of flying, can you guess why bro?, well simply because it is singular, and again you need two wings the least to fly, so it has to mean something else, clearly the most accurate translation must be SHAKIR, because he is smart enough to come up with a translation that does not confuse his non Arabic speaking Muslim brothers and sisters
phoenix1 wrote:
Nowehere else is it mentioned that kindness and humility have wings, so this must be taken literally.
As I stated and showed many verses to prove it, the word is used in conjunction with other words to express the meaning of '???????????¬an area of, it can't mean the literal wings as you are trying to tell me, it can't be because YOU NEED AT LEAST TWO WINGS TO FLY, and in 17:24 it is only SINGUALR
Salam
*Edited, fixed a few typos as always, as well a mistake in one of the verses I posted"
Posted:
Sun 22 Oct, 2006 11:32 am
phoenix1 Pawn
Status: Age: 35 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
OK. Well said, I must say.
But I still can't see why "God's hands" can't be taken figuratively.
Thanks bro for bringing this verse about the parents, hmmm, see man, this is what pissed me off big times on FM, seeing how the non Arabic speakers manipulate my language that I talk since I learnt how to talk, as well I'm not an average Arabic speaker, as you know and as I stated many times that I was a solid student of the language for many years and even competed with uni students while I was a high school student and I always used to win in the Arabic language competition, I was actually recommended by many teachers to be the one who competes under the name of the school against those older uni students, this makes it easy for me to spot many mistakes by the non Arabic speakers when they talk about my language
just a question, are you sure that the arabic you learned is the same as the language in the Quran?
Posted:
Mon 23 Oct, 2006 4:25 am
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject: To Phoenix
^ Well brother Phoenix let me put this in simple terms,
God (Allaah in Arabic) in the Quran is mentioned Al Sameeun Al Baseer, that means Allaah can hear and Allaah can see.
Well even if you to take this figuratively then Allaah in the Noble Quran is mentioned Lay sa ka mislin Shai, thats means Allaah is uncomparable.
In Surah Ikhlas 112:4 Allaah does not look like any one in the whole universe.
Now let me explain, Allaah is the one who taught us how to speak, read, write in different languages without doubt. Now Quran is divinely revealed book to the Slave of Allaah and Prophet Mohammed is a Human and a Messenger.
For us to comprehend that Allaah is a watcher, all hearer Allaah has to use words which is understood by a Human. Well Allaah in the Noble Quran mentions fruits in the Quran but are, and named equivalent to worldly fruits but its clearly mentioned it tastes differently.
Now my point, Allaah is mentioned I am the Hearer, is this compared to the hearing of the Humans in SurahAnam,AllaahismentionAllaahcanhearthefallofLeaf,astepofanantisitpossibleforaHuman. Is it possible for a human to hear whats beyond our hearing capacity. Can I hear my friend in Norway talking no way. Well, weel here in lies a huge differences.
Allaah is clearly mentioned in the Quran Allaah encompasses everything on Heaven and Earth.
Posted:
Thu 26 Oct, 2006 12:43 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
phoenix1 wrote:
OK. Well said, I must say.
But I still can't see why "God's hands" can't be taken figuratively.
Well, i didnlt say it can't be taken figuratively, of course it can, however in the verse on Adam creating and formation, it can't because it just does not make sense at all to use with a weaker creature like a single human, while not been used once with 7 mighty heavens and more, it just does not make sense at all
phoenix1 wrote:
just a question, are you sure that the arabic you learned is the same as the language in the Quran?
we only learn one type of Arabic at Arabic schools sir, it is called, Lugha Arabia Fusha, and that is the type of Arabic used in the Quran and that is the type of Arabic that all Arabic speaking nations will understand, in addition to that there is something called Lugha Arabia Darga, and this is what every Arabic nation chose for its day to day life, becuase in Lugha Arabia Darga you need to careless about grammar nor pronounciation in many cases, while under Lughar Arabia Fusha 'the language of the Quran", everything must be perfect including many difficult technics of Balagha (saying rich sentences using the least words)
Salam
Posted:
Thu 26 Oct, 2006 1:07 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
there is no question that Allah has hands, this is what he told us
# dont mind...but i certainly think otherwise!
Posted:
Sun 26 Nov, 2006 6:56 am
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
the wrote:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
there is no question that Allah has hands, this is what he told us
# dont mind...but i certainly think otherwise!
Then I feel you have read these verses in the Quran
"The Jews said: Allah's Hand is tied.' May their hands be tied and may they be accursed for the [blasphemy] they utter. Rather, both His Hands are widely outstretched; He gives and spends as He pleases." (al-Ma'idah 5/64)
"What kept you (Iblis) from falling prostrate before that which I have created with My Hands." (Sad 38/75)
Brother i know very little Arabic, but since I had been to few Arabic classes learnt something there, the Arabic word in blue which is Yad is Hands. The verse is 5-64,
But remember the hands are not like the hands of human, as Allaah is told in the Quran that Allaah is incomparable to all the created things.
Well, let me explain Allaah is mentioned in the Quran Al samieun Basseer.
That Allaah is All hearer and All seer. That means to our limited knowledge Allaah has ears and eyes which are present in his creation.
But this is uncomparable to us. For suppose i cannot hear someone in US forget US 1 km from my home place I cant hear, but Allaah is mentioned in the Quran that Allaah can hear the fall of a leaf and Allaah can hear footstep of an ant.
Well Allaah has this attributes mentioned in the Quran, but no way comparable to the creation. Allaah encompassess all knowledge and we cant encompass that.
Thanks,
Posted:
Sun 26 Nov, 2006 10:20 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Salam brother SOA
This is a tough discussion bro, as we should not say things against Allah what we don't know, therefore I might have committed this horrific sin by stating that I believe Allah has hands,
My belief was based solely on the Quran but if you look at the hadith, you will see that it confirms my belief, but forget the hadith let's just stick with the Quran hence what we are trying to do is not really saying things against Him that we don't know, rather trying to understand what He said about Himself, therefore, up to this moment I believe that according to the Quran ONLY, Allah has physical hands, how His hands look? or how many hand He have?, I have no idea, does it look like our hands? of course not, because He said there is nothing like Him, but that does not mean that He can't have hands because we have hands, rather it can mean easily that His hands are totally differnt to the human hands or any other creature hands for that matter
the hands can be many shapes bro
However if you can convince me using the Quran alone that Allah does not have physical hands i will 100% concede and seek repentence to Allah for my mistake of saying things against Him that He never said
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Brother, thats what I meant in the topic. I replied to the because he thought otherwise.
I am with you brother, Quran states Allaah has got hands but htose hands are something we cant think and it is incomparable to his creation. As Allaah is Surah Ikhlas in the last verse is made it clear.
I am with you, Allaah has some physical attributes mentioned in the Quran to himself, but we dont how it is and we cant define. So, i am 100% in confirmation with you and I have provided with reference in the Quran.
Something which Quran states, can go against my desire but for sre I know in the future it is helpful to me as Allaah has stated this in the Quran.Basic point is I should change according to Quran and I shouldnt make the Quran change according to me, thats what kafirs what us to do today.
Posted:
Sun 26 Nov, 2006 11:20 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Post subject:
Thanks bro
I just wanted to hear your confirmation, i totally misunderstood your comment, it is been a tirey day, I spent half of it cleaning my wife car, it was like a rubbish bin man,
good to hear that both of us agree together on this very tough and risky subject
Status: Age: 111 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
slaveofallaah wrote:
Then I feel you have read these verses in the Quran
"The Jews said: Allah's Hand is tied.' May their hands be tied and may they be accursed for the [blasphemy] they utter. Rather, both His Hands are widely outstretched; He gives and spends as He pleases." (al-Ma'idah 5/64)
"What kept you (Iblis) from falling prostrate before that which I have created with My Hands." (Sad 38/75)
Brother i know very little Arabic, but since I had been to few Arabic classes learnt something there, the Arabic word in blue which is Yad is Hands. The verse is 5-64,
But remember the hands are not like the hands of human, as Allaah is told in the Quran that Allaah is incomparable to all the created things.
# exactly....god is unlike...so to assume without sufficient evidence would not be a sound thing to do...and i think most of us will agree on this!
Quote:
Well, let me explain Allaah is mentioned in the Quran Al samieun Basseer.
That Allaah is All hearer and All seer. That means to our limited knowledge Allaah has ears and eyes which are present in his creation.
# again....does a spider have hands? how about snakes? fishes? amoeba?
## yes, god is the hearing, the seeing, but that should not make us suppose god has eyes and ears like us...or any other creation....should it?
but simply so that v may understand the message of god, god conveys to us its message in a very normal, day-to-day style of conversation, the reason as u stated: our limited knowledge.
Quote:
But this is uncomparable to us. For suppose i cannot hear someone in US forget US 1 km from my home place I cant hear, but Allaah is mentioned in the Quran that Allaah can hear the fall of a leaf and Allaah can hear footstep of an ant.
# yes....n i completely agree with u!
Quote:
Well Allaah has this attributes mentioned in the Quran, but no way comparable to the creation. Allaah encompassess all knowledge and we cant encompass that.
# i guess i agree...and i believe the quran's usage of words when talking about god may not necessarily capture its reality...rather only convey to us enough to allow us to understand what god wants us to understand!
Quote:
Thanks,
# anytime!
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
This is a tough discussion bro, as we should not say things against Allah what we don't know,
Quote:
slaveofallaah wrote:
I replied to the because he thought otherwise.
# when i said i think otherwise...i was replying to this:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
there is no question that Allah has hands, this is what he told us, see the following verse:
# it maybe that it has not told this to us, rather v think it has!
## like ahmedbahgat put it, to the effect that v should not say about god that which v do not know! n i feel i do not have enough evidence at the moment to say things 1 way or the other, so as to feel it is beyond doubt, but i am inclined to think there is no sufficient reason to believe god has "physical” “hands"!
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