| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
There are signs, the patterns that are present everywhere. Everything is subject to constant, unchanging laws, which is why we have mathematics.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
This constant universal law (al kitab) gives proof of a universal intelligence at work. There are no laws without intelligence.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But again, I'm not 100% sure about anything.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Do I see Quran as I sign, I don't know.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I try to take the quran as any other book.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And right now I'm just trying to learn some lessons from it instead of worrying about whether it is some special book or not. The answer to that will come in time.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
about the two statements. My answer is: it depends.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Truth doesn't mean that it actually happened. The truth of that statement can be in anything.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
I am going to tell you a true story."
Well, by that, It seems that you are saying that the story actually happened. So, to make sure that you are telling the truth, I will verify you claim.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
"I am going to tell you a story."
In this sentence, you are not claiming that this story actually happened, but that doesn't mean it doesn't contain truth. It might teach me a lesson, or reveal something to me.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
My point is, there are true stories that are meaningless, and there are just stories that tell us something true. It is the lesson, the deeper meaning, that we are more concerned about.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
The Quran never claims that these stories actually happened. It never gives us a setting for these stories.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
So the Quran gives me no reason to believe that these stories actually happened.
But why are we arguing about something the quran never talks about?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
You say that these stories must have happened because God is not like our grannies who makes up stories.
THen I say, "bring me the evidence."
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Then you say that we don't need evidence,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
we should just believe what the quran tells us.
I say that the quran never says these stories actually happened.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And if it did, it would need to give us proof.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Proof is the only thing that seperates truth from falsehood.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Then you say....what? your turn, Ahmed.
|
I say you have been done mate, however earlier we discussed the inclusion of the word True before the word story when I told you ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????I will tell you a TRUE story????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and you said that yes it means that it is true but you may have to verify it, I stated that if you consider me truthful, there will be no need to verify it, now let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s assume that you have doubt in my honesty and you want to verify it and see if the story I told is true or not because I included the word true, this now should apply to Allah from your side, you are doubting that the stories are true despite that He said they are ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????True Stories????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, consequently you need to verify it, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s look at the work of H Y who verified a story in the Quran that Allah never told us it is a metaphors:
PROPHET MUSA (AS) AND SEA'S SPLITTING IN TWO
The kings of Egypt-known as "Pharaohs" (or "Fir'awn" in the Arabic of the Qur'an)-regarded themselves as divine in the polytheistic, superstitious religion of ancient Egypt. At a time when the people of Egypt favoured a superstitious belief system over a divine belief system-the same era in which when the Children of Israel were enslaved-Allah sent the Prophet Musa (as) as a messenger to the tribe of Egypt.
However, Pharaoh and his court, and the people of Egypt in general, almost universally refused to abandon their idolatrous beliefs when the Prophet Musa (as) called them to divine religion and the Oneness of Allah.
The Prophet Musa (as) revealed to Pharaoh and his courtiers that they should avoid false worship, warning them of Allah's wrath. In response to this, they rose up and slandered the Prophet Musa (as): They accused him of being mad, of being a sorcerer and of falsehood. Pharaoh and his people refused to submit to the Prophet Musa (as) even though many troubles were visited upon them. They refused to accept Allah as the only God. They even held the Prophet Musa (as) responsible for what had befallen them and sought to exile him from Egypt. In the Qur'an, Allah makes this reference to the Prophet Musa (as) and the believers with him:
We revealed to Musa: "Travel with Our servants by night. You will certainly be pursued." Pharaoh sent marshals into the cities: "These people are a small group and we find them irritating and we constitute a vigilant majority." We expelled them from gardens and springs, from treasures and a splendid situation. So it was! And We bequeathed them to the tribe of Israel. So they pursued them towards the east. (Qur'an, 26:52-60)
As revealed in the Qur'an, the two communities met at the edge of the sea following this pursuit. Allah divided the sea and saved the Prophet Musa (as) and the believers with him, destroying Pharaoh and his people. This aid from Allah is revealed thus:
So We revealed to Musa, "Strike the sea with your staff." And it split in two, each part like a towering cliff. And We brought the others right up to it. We rescued Musa and all those who were with him. Then We drowned the rest. There is certainly a Sign in that yet most of them are not believers. Truly your Lord is the Almighty, the Most Merciful.
[Quran, 26:63-68]
The map shows the route taken by the Prophet Musa (as) after leaving Egypt and the estimated location of the site where the sea divided.
The diagram shows the shallow and deeper areas. It is at this point that the Sinai Peninsula and Arabia approach each other most closely.
In connection with this subject, the following account has recently been found in papyruses from the time of Pharaoh:
From Amenamoni, head of the protective books of the white room of the palace, to the scribe Penterhor:
When this letter reaches you and has been read point by point, surrender your heart to the sharpest pain, like a leaf before the storm, when you learn of the sorrowful disaster of the drowning in the whirlpool????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦
Calamity struck him suddenly and inescapably. Depict the destruction of the lords, the lord of the tribes, the king of the east and the west. The sleep in the waters has made something helpless out of something great. What news can compare to the news I have sent you?202
This miracle, experienced by the Prophet Musa (as) and the Children of Israel as they crossed the Red Sea, has been the subject of many studies. Archaeological investigations have established not only the path taken to the Red Sea after leaving Egypt, but also that the place where Pharaoh and the Prophet Musa (as) and his tribe met was one surrounded by mountains. (Allah knows best.)
The mountain known as Jabal-al Musa is generally regarded as being in the Sinai Peninsula. However, recent findings have shown that it is actually on the Arabian shore of the Red Sea.
Following a long and difficult journey for the Prophet Musa (as) and the Israelites, a passage out between the mountains could be seen.
That part of the Sinai Peninsula opening onto the Gulf.
Following a great deal of study and investigation taking this as the starting point, scientists came to striking conclusions with regard to how the sea was divided into two. These conclusions are in full agreement with those revealed in the Qur'an. The way that historical events described in the Qur'an are today illuminated by historical records is without doubt an important miracle of the book of Islam.
Pharaoh????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s royal chariot is on display in a museum in Egypt. A similar example was found during excavations in the location where the sea divided.
According to the study which was published in the Bulletin of the Russian Academy of Sciences, there was a reef, which was close to the surface in the Red Sea at that time. From there, the scientists set about establishing the speed of the wind and the strength of the storm needed to leave the reef high and dry at low tide. As a result, it became apparent that a wind speed of 30 metres per second would have caused the sea to retract, leaving the reef exposed. Naum Volzinger, of the Institute of Oceanography of the Russian Academy of Sciences, stated that "if the [east] wind blew all night at a speed of 30 metres per second then the reef would be dry." He also said that "it would take the Jews-there were 600,000 of them-four hours to cross the 7 kilometre reef that runs from one coast to another????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦ then, in half an hour, the waters would come back."203 In addition, Volzinger said that he and his colleague Androsov studied the issue strictly from Isaac Newton's point of view. As he put it, "I am convinced that God rules the Earth through the laws of physics."204
It must not be forgotten that there is always a possibility of this natural phenomenon taking place. If Allah so desires, this miracle can take place again when the requisite conditions-such as windspeed, time and place-are met. However, the truly miraculous aspect here is the fact that these events took place just when the Prophet Musa (as) and his tribe were about to be vanquished. The fact that the waters withdrew just as the Prophet Musa (as) and the community with him were about to cross them-not to mention the way that the waters returned just as Pharaoh and his army were crossing-is a clear example of the aid that Allah gives to the faithful. Indeed, the way that the Prophet Musa (as) relied on and trusted in Allah is an example of the most pleasing moral values:
And when the two hosts came into sight of one another Musa's companions said, "We will surely be overtaken!" He said, "Never! My Lord is with me and He will guide me."
[Quran, 26:61-62]
References
202. British Museum, Egyptian Papyri No.6.
203. Galina Stolyarova, "City Scientists Say Red-Sea Miracle Can Be Explained," The St. Petersburg Times, 20 January 2004, www.sptimes.ru/archive/times/936/top/t_11445.htm; Galina Stolyarova, "Mathematicians Dissect a Miracle," The Moscow Times, 21 January 2004, www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2004/01/21/003.html.
204. Ibid.
| Quote:
|
We have a person who fell from the tenth floor, mathematics say, that person must die, however in reality though we have many possibilities:
1) the person will die instantly
2) the person will have minor injuries
3) the person will have no scratch
|
| Quote:
|
good but please before you do that you have to show me first other books like it then I may accept your statement that you take it as other books
see your statement is flawed because there is no other book like it, so how the hell you take it like other books?
|
| Quote:
|
|
So you agree that if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man who said :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? I am going to tell you a true story.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means that the story must have happened ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Because there is no need for me to include the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????TRUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, while it is not true, remember we are assuming that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if you doubt that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful, then all you need is to verify my claim, which I say fair enough
|
| Quote:
|
We have a person who fell from the tenth floor, mathematics say, that person must die, however in reality though we have many possibilities:
1) the person will die instantly
2) the person will have minor injuries
3) the person will have no scratch
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
No. Mathematics will not say that.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
See, what my point was that Mathematics, physics, chemistry, they all are STUDIES of LAWS. These LAWS are unchanging and rigid. That's why we can study them, use them, and predict what will happen.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
A person who falls from a ten story building CAN die, but a scientific (mathematical) prediction would take into account all the deciding factors. For example the weight of the person, the shape of his body, the hardness of the surface he falls on...all these will be studied.
We can only make the prediction based on these constant laws.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
But if you are talking about supernatural intervention, then I cannot agree with you.
I don't think God interferes with His laws and our lives in this manner.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Every cause has an appropriate effect. If a person falls, and he should die, then he will die.
|
| Quote:
|
good but please before you do that you have to show me first other books like it then I may accept your statement that you take it as other books
see your statement is flawed because there is no other book like it, so how the hell you take it like other books?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
What I meant was that I look at the Quran as a man made book.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I may come to the conclusion that these are God's words.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But when I read it, I read it assuming nothing.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
I don't assume that it's author was perfect. What it means is:
I want to verify everything it says. I want proof of everything it claims. That's all.
|
| Quote:
|
|
So you agree that if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man who said :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? I am going to tell you a true story.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? means that the story must have happened ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Because there is no need for me to include the word ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????TRUE????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, while it is not true, remember we are assuming that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful man????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if you doubt that I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful, then all you need is to verify my claim, which I say fair enough
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I doubt that the Quran is truthful.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
We should all have that doubt.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Without that doubt, we will blindly believe what it says,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
which is going against it's very message.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I like to learn from everything that happens to me.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I have found the Quran to be a great source for spiritual guidance (and maybe even more). That's why I want to study it.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
Now to 3:62
This is the true account:, And there is no god except Allah; and Allah-He is indeed the Exalted in Power, the Wise.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
BTW, account = story or narration
If you read the verses before it, and after it (taking it in context), it is talking about the account of Jesus. I will continue this later...
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
So...3:62 is talking about Jesus, and the passage is talking about the quran as a whole.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
It is saying that the quran is the truth from God.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
As I explained earlier, if something is "true" it doesn't necessarily mean it actually happened.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But if I do take your word for it. If I do believe that the quran is saying that they happened in reality, then I will have to say that the quran is probably lying
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
There is no evidence that anything like this ever happened.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And some events are not even logical.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I cannot verify this claim.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But maybe I'll give the quran the benefit of the doubt and say that it's possible that these stories happened.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
It's possible. But at least right now, I can't know for sure. So I will not focus on something I can never know.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I'll focus on what I can know,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
and that is the symbolic meanings of these stories. Whether they actually happened or not is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with the lesson. The lesson is there regardless.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
if this makes me a kafir by your standards, so be it.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
let me ask you this:
If I was to tell you a story about a man who got kidnapped by magic penguins in the middle of a desert, would you believe me?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
If not, then why do you believe the quran?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I know that you believe these stories because you believe the quran is the word of god.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But how did you come to the conclusion that it is the word of god?
|
| Quote:
|
because it was not you who wrote it, nor any human for that matter, therefore I have to give it the benefit of the doubt that it is divine until a human comes forwars and claim that the Quran is his/hers on that day I will have to invistigate the claim proposed ut until then the Quran must belong to the only entity that claimed to be the Author and so far only Allah said that He is the Author
now if me and you are gettin pissed in a bar and suddenly someone honest found a 100 bucks bill, that pissed man decided to annouce if someone one lost 100 bucks
now if only one person out of all those pissed ones comes and claim to be the owner of that money, then it has to be his, if two persons claim to own the 100 bucks then we have a problem
with the Quran though we don't have a problem, because we have only Allah claimed to be the Author, on the other hand you claim that someone who is unknown is the author, I guess that unknown one must be living in your Barbie world possibly "Kim"
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
OK, 3:62 is referring to the Quran. But, again, words can be TRUE in more than one way.
In fact, you can tell me something that actually happened and still be telling me a lie.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Because what actually happened is not important (which has been my whole point all along), it's what the message of those words is. That's all.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And here has been your argument:
|
| Quote:
|
1. I believe the stories of the Quran did physically happen.
2. They happened because God never lies to us, and is not like our grannies who make up stories to teach us lessons. God uses real stories.
3. The Quran is from God, so I believe whatever the Quran says.
4. The Quran is from God because no one else has claimed to be it's author.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
My problem with your argument (#4) is that you can't just assume that it's from God because no one today, or in WRITTEN history has taken credit for writing it.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I'm not saying it's not from God,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I'm only saying that we cannot assume that based on the fact that no one has claimed to be it's author (even if someone did today, no one would believe him).
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Another problem is that you are using circular logic.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
You are saying that the no one could've written the Quran because it says it's very beautiful and even jinn found it amazing. Don't you see that?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
It's like if I say I'm great because I say I'm great.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I don't need any proof of my greatness.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
My word is proof enough. Would you really think that I'm great just because I say it?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
My point is, we cannot ASSUME that the WHOLE book is from God.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
We can't. Not even the whole,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
but every word should be scrutinized and put under criticism.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Then not only will we know the truth, but we'll have a better understanding of the quran.
|
| Quote:
|
|
Bro, why you are repeating your flawed arguments?, as I said if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m a truthful person there will be no need for me to include the word TRUE and yet say a lie, you just don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make any sense bro, and as I said you have the right to doubt the try to investigate yourself if I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m truthful or not, for the Quran which in existence for 1400 years, many doubt the same and many tried to find evidences to the stories in the Quran and of course over the years many stories have been confirmed
|
| Quote:
|
That Allah sent messengers to a group of people and they didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t listen to it so they earned a punishment? That is the main lesson in all these prophets stories
Why Allah gave examples that never happened?, to scare us or what?
|
| Quote:
|
See that is your major flaw, because a God can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t say that He did or will so such and such and it never happen, it has to be a lie if it didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t happen or will not happen, however I believe a human can lie and do just that but God is not a human to do that, your flaw is simply the result that you are ignorant to what and how the God should be as many ignorant humans are, no conflict here neither I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m amazed with your silly and contradictory claims
|
| Quote:
|
|
Of course and that is what makes me a believer, see, when you say I believe it means you believe in something that you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t or didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see, and that is what we have been created for, TO BELIEVE, now you want to take this main and only requirement out of the picture, hence you will be left with no picture because that is the only meaning of belief, which is again, to believe in something that you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t or didn????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t see,
|
| Quote:
|
|
excuse me, you are lying again, you said no one has taken credit to it, while the fact of the matter is, there is only one entity which claimed the credit for it, the entity is Allah,
|
| Quote:
|
|
That is another lie bro, you clearly believe that it is not from Allah, please don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t lie, remember Santa?
|
| Quote:
|
|
4 lies in a row bro, man, you are a professional, again there is one entity who claimed to be the Author of the Quran, it is written in it bro
|
| Quote:
|
LOL, that is a typical line by those who get cornered, man please drop what you have learnt on FM when you discuss matters on FI, I actually believe that using circular logic is the main problem of yours
For example you want to believe in the Unseen while at the same time you want to see it, and that is what I call circular logic
|
| Quote:
|
|
Mohammad Ali said he is the greatest and he was great
|
| Quote:
|
What you are missing is this, most authors say about their books that they are great, now can humans take this for granted?, or course not, and this also applies to the Quran, now the Quran proved to be the greatest Arabic book ever written for the last 1400 years and we still counting, you should not debate this fact because you know no Arabic so please stay out of it and just watch if any Arabic speaker wants to argue this fact about the Arabic Quran
Therefore yes many Arabic professionals proved that the Quran is the greatest book ever written in Arabic
|
| Quote:
|
|
hahahaha, as if in 1400 years there is non who understands the Quran
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
You aren't getting my point.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Everything we say has a message. We say things because we want to convey something.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Now, the message/moral/lesson in my story can be true or false.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I can tell you about the Vietnam war to teach you a false lesson.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I can tell you about a fake war to teach you a true lesson.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Or I can tell you about a real war to teach you a true lesson.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
So a story can be "made up" and still be true.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I'm repeating my argument because you fail to understand it.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And I'm sorry if I missed some of your questions, but I try to answer your posts without quoting every single sentence.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Maybe I missed something or thought the question was rhetorical. Please repeat the question if you don't mind.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Because it's not important! it doesn't matter whether they happened 1000000s of years ago or not.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
What happened back then doesn't affect us in any way today.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Yes, they didn't obey the messengers and they earned a punishment (which is only one of the many lessons we can learn).
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And we can put ourselves in their place (this is where symbolism comes in) and say "If we don't obey the messenger (the truth basically), we will be punished."
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
These stories are there because they help us out TODAY, in our daily lives.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
What I don't like is for people to spend their time looking to prove these stories (when they can't prove "miracles") and forget about why these stories are actually there. The Quran is a reminder, not a test.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Just tell me this, is there, or is there not, a deeper message/lesson to these stories?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
if yes, then we have no disagreement on this issue.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I have no problem with you trying to prove whether these stories happened or not.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I just don't think it's important.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But they do happen. All I'm saying is that maybe these stories didn't actually happen in the past,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
but they DO happen all around us all the time.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
We face the same problems that Adam did, don't we?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
are we not tempted by satan?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
So maybe there wasn't an actual person called Adam. But maybe Adam=us. Maybe this is a true story but just not in the sense that you are thinking. Just because these stories never happened in history, doesn't make them false.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I disagree with you here. Our purpose isn't to believe. It is to SERVE.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But how do we know whether we are serving the right cause or not????
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
We have to verify every piece of information to know if it's true or not. If it's true, we follow it. If not, we discard it.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
We cannot just BELIEVE. We can't. That's stupid.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I meant a person didn't take credit for it. I pointing out your argument. Please don't say I'm lying, because I'm not. If I make a mistake, or I misunderstand you, I'll admit it. But one thing I'm not doing, and I don't have to do, is lying.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I'm not sure about that stance (my position is complicated).
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I have certainly argued against the notion that the quran is the word of Allah,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
but that's not what we're arguing here. I'm not talking about that right now. It's not important to this debate.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Maybe we can argue over that some other time,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
but I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not implying that in any of my posts here. My purpose is not to prove the quran isn't from God. Or to prove the quran wrong in any way. But just to show you that the quran needs to be examined like any other book, and that just because the stories are symbolic doesn't mean they are false.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Again, I was talking about a person claiming authorship of the quran.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
You are saying that the Quran is true because it is from God. It is from God because it says it is from God. And it is telling the truth about that because the Quran is ture because it is from God. It is from God because it says it is from God. And it is telling the truth about that because the Quran is true because it is from God....That is, whether you admit it or not, circular logic.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
The "unseen" is not what happened 1234870579235 years ago and we must believe to be good people. The unseen is the deeper meaning of everything.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
It is what is beneath the surface of things. People who care about looks, and material things do not care about what these things actually are. They can only see these things and don't realize what is more important. They don't care to look beneath the surface.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
The more important things in life are not physical (cannot be seen). They have to be realized and experienced.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But you know he was great because you know what he did. Not because of what he said.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
If satan says "im great" you won't believe him. That was my point, which again you missed. Maybe it's just me.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
OK. This is where this debate ends (and now maybe we can discuss some of the symbolism). I have read the rest of the post by the way.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
The thing is, I don't believe the quran has been proven to be the greatest book.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Simply because I don't think we have a good enough understanding of it.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And also because of the influence of hadith,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
the message has been corrupted.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
there is no one who understands the quran? I don't know what you're saying there.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
Now, getting to what I wanted to discuss, answer me this:
don't we, in our daily lives, go through the same troubles as Adam did?
|
| Quote:
|
|
Of course I'm getting it, simply you are mixing two different issues, the first is the guidance learnt in the Quran and the second is the history of mankind mentioned in the Quran, please do not mix apple with mangos as you always do
|
| Quote:
|
|
again, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t bloody mix apple with mangos, the lessons learnt has nothing to do with a story been real or not, they are two different issues, it is you who pushing hard to explicitly make the message as only metaphor while ignoring all the historical facts mentioned and proved in the Quran,
|
| Quote:
|
|
bro I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t care about your story as a story teller nor any other human story teller for that matter, I only care if the story teller is Allah
|
| Quote:
|
|
do you believe that Jesus was born without a father?
|
| Quote:
|
|
excuse me, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not discussing the lessons now, I asked you to list for me all the lessons in these stories and you declined so knock off please, what I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only discussing with ya now that these stories are real or not, you say they are not without providing any evidence other than your wishful thinking and your matrix, I said they are true and provided evidences from the Quran, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t you understand that I only accept evidences from the Quran? If you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t then let me say one more time, I only accept evidences from the Quran if you want to debate the Quran, other than this bro, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not really interested
|
| Quote:
|
|
now please show me your evidences that Allah said these stories never happened, thank you
|
| Quote:
|
|
well, why Allah tell us a an unreal story then?, why He said to Mohammad that some of the prophets He sent are mentioned to him in the Quran and some are not, why you dodged that verse that exposes your ignorance about the reality of these stories?
|
| Quote:
|
|
If the reality of these stories are not important and only the lessons are for ya, why you are going around ranting that these stories can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be taken for real?, you are really confused man
|
| Quote:
|
s believing in these stories as real is considered blasphemy?
Or
Is NOT believing in these stories as real is considered blasphemy?
|
| Quote:
|
excuse me which messenger to obey exactly?
Can you prove to me that Mohammad existed? Thank you
|
| Quote:
|
help us in what exactly?, how Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood will help us can you explain to me?
Well possibly the many floods that happen now for real are exactly the same of what happened to Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s people for real?, remember the last big tsunami
|
| Quote:
|
|
Ok now the onus is on you to explain to us how you managed to prove the Mohammad lived for real so you are learning how to follow him now, cheers
|
| Quote:
|
there is only one deeper message in these stories really, and it is, Allah will punish the wrong doers for real, and no one can stop Him nor save them.
|
| Quote:
|
excuse me bro, the above statement is flowed, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only trying to prove that theyb are happened, it is you that you are trying to porve that they did not happen,
now I do have a problem with you trying to prove that the stories never happened, while on the other hand you claim that that their reality is not important, for me though their reality is a must for the whole Quran to make any sense
|
| Quote:
|
|
if it is important issue to you then sure you have every right to rant about it
|
| Quote:
|
|
what a gruesome lie you are promoting man
|
| Quote:
|
Like the real Tsunamis and the real Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood?
|
| Quote:
|
no we don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t, did God told us to not to eat from a specific tree?, that is the only problem Adam faced as much as I believe
but before you talk about Adam, do you believe that we all came from him and Allah created him with His own Hands?
|
| Quote:
|
|
Bro, that is a totally different issue however if I accept your argument that when Adam was tempted to eat from the tree is like we all tempted to commit all the crimes we are aware of, would that mean Adam was a true person for you? And if so then we have no disagreement in here, however to I have stave to state that the Quran told us that the story of Adam is for real, do you believe in that Walid?
|
| Quote:
|
|
what sense is that man, again Allah is the one who is saying the story, don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t bloody apply your flawed human logic on Allah, what you said only applies to the human story tellers, NOT ON ALLAH, obviously your ignorance with the God is clear as light
|
| Quote:
|
Believing in God must be to serve Him
Now how do you serve Him bro?, do you pray?, do you convey His message to other people?, do you pay Zakat?, did you fast last Ramadan?, are you planning to do Hajj to Mecca?
|
| Quote:
|
I have verified a lot. Not only from the quran, but a lot of information.
The quran teaches me to control my emotions and stay at peace, and I have tried doing that and it helps me. I can make better decisions when I am calm. The quran tells me that the majority always believe in conjecture, and so far I have found that to be right. The point is, no matter what quran we read, we must make sure that what it says is true.
|
| Quote:
|
|
well, if it is complicated then it has nothing to so with Islam because Allah made His religion simple
|
| Quote:
|
|
you did indeed and without any knowledge whatsoever or even a reasonable period spent to study that amazing book
|
| Quote:
|
|
there iis only one way to argue this bro, you need to show us a mistake in the Quran, other than this I won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t accept or argue your maytrix thoughts, you are free to think the way you wish regarding all aspects of life except the Arabic Quran because any share that book together, and the logic is that all believers in that book must come to a common understanding not each individual understanding, and the best way to achieve that is to stick to the literal Quran.
|
| Quote:
|
|
now please understand it that you are talking to some one who is examining it for the last 25 years or even more than that by now, dontl you understand that or what bro? or do you think I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m one of those young guns in their twenties who all of a sudden think that they can comprehend the Quran ?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
sorry this is a little late...
|
| Quote:
|
Like the real Tsunamis and the real Noah????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s flood?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
No. They happen for real.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But in a non physical way. Noah is a symbol for all the people in his situation.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
He was telling the truth but no one wanted to listen to him.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
So when we are in that situation,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
we try to understand what happened in his story,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
put it in our terms, and do what he did.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
And many people are in such a situation.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Even you have been in that kind of a situation,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
In the end, you need to realize that the quran does have the ability to affect your life right here right now.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Not a specific tree. But there are things forbidden to us, right?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
So satan will try to tempt us to do the things that are forbidden,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
but we have a choice (just as Adam did) to either listen to God or listen to Satan.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Adam's story helps us make the right choice.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But we do not come from him in the sense that he married eve and they had children and that's how our population grew.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Looking at it that way makes it illogical. See, I'm not saying the stories themselves are illogical, but the way you are looking at them is.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
If logic isn't important to you, that's a different story.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
But you have to admit that logically, and scientifically, your version of these stories holds no water.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
It is not a totally different issue.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
That's what you think because you are have symbolismphobia.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Adam was/is real. His story is real. But just not in the way you think.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
You think that if we can't see, touch something, it's not real,
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
well other things can be real too.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Adam's story happens all the time.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
You just have this blind belief in these characters and you just can't let go.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
That's why you fail to see what I'm showing you.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Tell me I'm not knowledgable enough, but don't say that my logic is flawed.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
God gave me the ability to think rationally so I can seperate truth from falsehood.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Without our human logic (which you conviently call flawed) is given to us by Allah. Are you calling his creation flawed? when he says that he perfected us?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Why doesn't it apply to God?
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
your argument against me has been that God isn't like our grannies.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Well, explain to me why. Why can't God, or more importantly his messenger, use symbolism and metaphors to explain God's message? (God's message is explained in parables)
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
There is a world of difference between just "believing" and "serving." Believing means you just believe. You can believe that you are hungry and you can believe that there is a basket of fruit in front of you.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Or you can actually do something about it (which would be to get up and eat the fruit).
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Well, serving God is doing something with our belief. We believe in God, so we should model ourselves after him.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
We serve God by bringing his divine qualities down to earth.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Serving is not praying or performing rituals.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Rituals don't do anything.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
They don't change anything. Unless they work like magic.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
There is one very important law that most people forget about: we get what we deserve. God doesn't change his will just because someone asks him to. There are trillions of beings on earth, God wouldn't disrupt his laws for just one tiny human.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
It is up to us to bring about change. To improve ourselves and get closer to God.
Salat is not for God, it is for us. TO help us serve him.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
Zakat is not something we pay, it is something we accomplish by doing good deeds (like charity) and through salat.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I do fast, but I'm not sure exactly what ramadan is or what the purpose of fasting is. But, again, it is FOR US. It is so that we live better lives.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
We don't have to pass anything.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
But we have a choice, either to waste ourselves and live terrible lives, or make ourselves useful and live good, happy, peaceful lives.
The Quran helps us live a better life.
|
| phoenix1 wrote:
|
|
I have verified a lot. Not only from the quran, but a lot of information.
|
Don't be upset bro, I'm sorry, no offence meant, I get very bored when they keep repeating their arguments, the same feeling now I have for layth article that I still have to finish, it is just so boring man, for me those who keep repeating their arguments without responding to every single refute mentioned are really boring to debate with
If you notice that I respond to almost every letter and argument and verse in the comments I reply to, and I hope the others do the exact same to me and if they don't I just loose interest, sorry
Take care
All times are GMT + 10 Hours
Powered by phpBB 2.0 .0.17 © 2001
phpBB
Group
just joking