I wonder bro, do those munafiqoon aware of what they are doing?, I always want to understand how they are inside
- Mon 29 Jan, 2007 12:30 pm
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# all they are trying to do is create fitna...i ve seen many non-muslims use the works of warnsbrough and crone and the likes to spread their disbelief....and the fact that they pretend to be muslims makes them personify the word munafiq!
## as for their "insides"...hmmm...i think all munafiqs are same...they do not believe in god and the quran so they dont think anything is amiss when they manipulate the quran and lie about it...it's like the quran says about them: la yaalamun
# take care bro! (-:
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 5:54 pm
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Hello All
Here is anther good one:
????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
[The Quran ; 29:46]
وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ (46)
-> In 29:46 we see that the ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????already????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? believers should say to the people of the book THAT THEY BELIEVED in the one God, and TO HIM they submit, this is very important verse because IN Allah we believe, and ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????لَهُ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, TO Allah we submit, CLEAR AS LIGHT ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Lahu Muslimoon????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? which happened after they believed in him as Moses asked the jews to do in 10:84
We can't submit to Him before we believe in Him
Salam
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 5:56 pm
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Hello All
Here is another good one:
Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
[The Quran ; 3:84]
قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ (84)
-> Another compelling verses that shows Islam is a status that is reached after decalring the belief, see how the order was TO SAY WE BELIEVE, under the flawed understanding that To submit is less than to believe then the above verse is a clear cut contradiction "God forbids" because in 49:14, it says "don't say we believe", but here it says "say we believe", see
-> We can also read that after they decalred their belief they decalred their submission to Allah at the end of the verse, another compelling evidence that Submitting to Allah is higher than believeing in Allah
i.e. not every believer is a submitter to Allah
and very submitter to Allah must be a believer in Allah
this makes sense to a child
you can't submit to Allah before you believe in Him
let me say it in another way in case we have children reading this thread
you can only submit to Allah after you beliive that He exists
yep this way it makes sense to children
Salam
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 5:57 pm
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Hello All
Here another good one:
68- O My servants! there is no fear for you this day, nor shall you grieve.
69- (Being) those who have believed in Our Signs and bowed (their wills to Ours) in Islam (Submission).
70- Enter the garden, you and your wives; you shall be made happy.
[The Quran ; 43:68-70]
يَا عِبَادِ لَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْكُمُ الْيَوْمَ وَلَا أَنتُمْ تَحْزَنُونَ (68)
الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا بِآيَاتِنَا وَكَانُوا مُسْلِمِينَ (69)
ادْخُلُوا الْجَنَّةَ أَنتُمْ وَأَزْوَاجُكُمْ تُحْبَرُونَ (70)
-> See how it 43:69 says those who believed and submitted, i.e. belief is first then submission is second
Salam
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 5:58 pm
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Hello All
Here is a killer of an argument :
Nor can you lead away the blind out of their error. You cannot make to hear any but those who believe in Our revelations/signs so they shall submit.
[The Quran ; 27:81]
وَمَا أَنتَ بِهَادِي الْعُمْيِ عَن ضَلَالَتِهِمْ إِن تُسْمِعُ إِلَّا مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا فَهُم مُّسْلِمُونَ (81)
What else I can say brothers and sisters with Albab (brains)?
well here it is in big letters
"إِلَّا مَن يُؤْمِنُ بِآيَاتِنَا فَهُم مُّسْلِمُونَ", i.e. "but those who believe in Our revelations/signs so they shall submit.", can yuo can you see the word SHALL?
I.E. They believed first then they shall submit second
Salam
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 6:00 pm
Post subject:
Tanveer said on FM:
Peace all,
Here the "fluent" Arab is deliberately mistranslating the words of The God which is a killer proof that he is a great deceiver:
The correct translations are:
27:81 PM translation: Nor can you guide the blind from their misguidance. You can only make those who believe in Our revelations hear you, for they have surrendered.
Yusuf Ali: Nor canst thou be a guide to the blind, (to prevent them) from straying: only those wilt thou get to listen who believe in Our Signs, and they will bow in Islam.
This again shows that believer and submitter at same time. There is no "thumma" in this verse.
Now the "fluent" Arab is stooping to new lows !!
STRIKE #5 ............. Keep them coming !!
This verse actually describes the "fluent" Arab quite well "Nor can you guide the blind from their misguidance"
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 6:03 pm
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Hello all
Let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s now look at some logical arguments that should demolish the ignorance promoted by some so called Muslims, the following verses should knock their ignorance once and for all:
Here is Ibrahim and his son Ismail (who are already believers in Allah) asking Him to make them Submitters
Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
[The Quran ; 2:128]
رَبَّنَا وَاجْعَلْنَا مُسْلِمَيْنِ لَكَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِنَا أُمَّةً مُّسْلِمَةً لَّكَ وَأَرِنَا مَنَاسِكَنَا وَتُبْ عَلَيْنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ التَّوَّابُ الرَّحِيمُ (128)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, remember that Ibrahim believed in Allah before he had any children when he had the argument with his father earlier, look again at this verse and see how they are asking Allah (Whom they believe in already) to make them submitters to Him, i.e. a submitter is a status that comes after believing and not all believers will succeed to reach it that is why they asked Allah to help them to reach it
Knock down # 1
Now we read (the already believer Ibrahim) submitted a couple of verses later:
131- When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.
132- And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are Muslims.
[The Quran ; 2:131-132]
إِذْ قَالَ لَهُ رَبُّهُ أَسْلِمْ قَالَ أَسْلَمْتُ لِرَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ (131)
وَوَصَّى بِهَا إِبْرَاهِيمُ بَنِيهِ وَيَعْقُوبُ يَا بَنِيَّ إِنَّ اللّهَ اصْطَفَى لَكُمُ الدِّينَ فَلاَ تَمُوتُنَّ إَلاَّ وَأَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ (132)
-> See how Ibrahim submitted to Allah after he believed in Him: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
-> Now here is the funny one that exposes those ignorant who claim, you can be a Muslim while not being a believer, see how Ibrahim enjoined his family :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? فَلاَ تَمُوتُنَّ إَلاَّ وَأَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? , therefore die not unless you are Muslims.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????,
hmmm, according to those ignorant so called Muslims, we can die without believing then, all we need to do is say, we submit to the lord of the worlds, sounds funny.
Obviously Ibrahim advice to his (already believing) family is to reach the highest level of belief which is submitting to Allah as it happened to him exactly, i.e. when you are a Muslim you are already a believer, however you can be a believer (you can see millions around you) but not a Muslim yet
Knock down # 2
That order that we should try hard to reach the upmost level of belief which is submitting to Allah was given to the ALREADY BELIEVERS, as we can see CLEARLY below:
O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah with the care which is due to Him, and do not die unless you are Muslims.
[The Quran ; 3:102]
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ اتَّقُواْ اللّهَ حَقَّ تُقَاتِهِ وَلاَ تَمُوتُنَّ إِلاَّ وَأَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ (102)
-> What else I can say, see the verse is directed at the already believers :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? O you who believe????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, the same said by Ibrahim to his already believing family is said to all the believers in this verse: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? وَلاَ تَمُوتُنَّ إِلاَّ وَأَنتُم مُّسْلِمُونَ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and do not die unless you are Muslims.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????,
i.e. there are believers who die without becoming Muslims,
i.e. Islam comes after believing
i..e. every Muslim is a believer
i.e. not every believer is a Muslim
Knock down # 3
Hmmm, three knock downs in one round, that is a knock out
The silly argument that submission to Allah happens before believing in Him is dismissed and the case must be rested for life
Salam
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 6:04 pm
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Tanveer said on FM:
Peace all,
The "fluent" Arab, who does not know two of the meanings of "lamma", is again trying to deceive and mislead others !!
This is what a believer is according to al-qur'aan:
According to 49:15, 8:2-4, 2:2-5, 28:53-54, 2:177, 4:103, 2:183, mumins (faithful, truthful, righteous, believers) have the following traits:
a. They have faith and trust in The God
b. They have faith in the messengers
c. They have faith in the angels
d. They have faith in all The God's revelations
e. They have faith in the unseen
f. They have faith in the Last Day and certainty regarding the hereafter
g. They attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever
h. They counter evil works with good works
i. They strive with their lives and money in the way of The God
j. Their hearts tremble when The God is mentioned
k. Their faith is strengthened by hearing The God's revelations
l. They uphold the timed/regular salaat
m. They give to charity
n. They contribute to betterment/zakaat.
o. They fast for periods of time to establish patience
p. They free the slaves
q. They keep their word whenever they make a promise
r. They steadfastly persevere in the face of persecution, hardship, and war
According to this definition of al-qur'aan, one can be a mumin only if one has ALL the above traits. Any element missing from the above traits and they are not mumins. Thus if Abraham only believed in The God, does not make him a mumin !!
Now let us consider 28:53-54
28:53 And if it is recited to them, they Say: "We believe in it. It is the truth from our Lord. Indeed, we had submitted BEFORE it."
28:54 To these We grant twice the reward for that they have been patient. And they counter evil with good, and from Our provisions to them, they give.
According to 28:53, one can be a submitter even without believing in al-qur'aan, and according to 28:54, believer will have twice the reward, so believer is at a higher level than submitter.
Now let us consider the following verses:
2:62 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabiens, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.
5:69 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Sabiens, and the Nazarenes, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; then they will have nothing to fear nor will they grieve.
These verses are clearly telling us that whoever believes in The God and the Last Day and does good work will have nothing to fear and if one dies in that state one will be rewarded. According to 2:132 people are advised to die as muslims. Putting 2:62, 5:69, 2:132 together, it follows that:
Muslim = whoever believes in The God and the Last Day and does good works.
Remember that to be a mumin one is required to have all the traits mentioned above earlier, and believing only in God and the Last Day DOES NOT MAKE ONE A MUMIN.
Thus all mumineen are muslimeen (confirmed by 22:77-78) but all muslimeen are not mumineen.
Now if we see the story of Abraham, he believed in The God and at that stage when he was not a mumin as he still lacked many other traits of a mumin as explained above, he was ordered to submit to The God which he did and became a muslim. Thus clearly he was a muslim at that stage but not a mumin yet. This clearly shows that one can be a muslim before one is a mumin, and if one dies in this state (believing in God and the Last Day and doing good deeds), one will be rewarded. Of course, later Abraham must have become a mumin also, and even when he was a mumin he was still also a muslim !
STRIKE #1 and #2 for AB
I have shown above how all mumineen are muslimeen per 22:77-78, so when they die they die as muslimeen and that is what 3:102 is saying. If a mumin dies as a muslim, it does not mean that muslim is a higher level which would also contradict 28:54.
According to 22:77-78, mumin is also a muslim, so a mumin can never die without being a muslim ! For example if an ordinary human becomes a king and he dies as a king, he also dies as a human !! This proves that 3:102 does not contradict a mumin being at a higher level than a muslim as mentioned in 28:53-54.
Islam cannot come after iman because that will contradict 28:53 and 49:14, however, iman can come after islam per 28:53 and 49:14.
Thus every mumin is a muslim, but every muslim is not a mumin.
STRIKE #3, AB is out
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 6:05 pm
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Hello All
Here is another lie by this manipulated deceiver:
See what the confused liar said above :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? In my understanding, the underlined portion above are the MINIMUM requirements of islam.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Now here is the Arabic verse and you never see the word Islam in it:
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالنَّصَارَى وَالصَّابِئِينَ مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحاً فَلَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ وَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ (62)
[The Quran ; 2:62]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ وَالَّذِينَ هَادُواْ وَالصَّابِؤُونَ وَالنَّصَارَى مَنْ آمَنَ بِاللّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الآخِرِ وعَمِلَ صَالِحًا فَلاَ خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلاَ هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ (69)
[The Quran ; 5:69]
He is such a clear cut liar and a manipulator, the two verses above never talked about Muslims or any status of Submission, in fact both of them are talking about the BELIEVERS, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????Al Lazina Amanu????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, read it again please to see how this deceiver has no shame to mislead his brothers and sisters motivated by extreme jealousy
i.e. the verses above are talking about the BELIEVERS, but the deceiver said :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? are the MINIMUM requirements of islam????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? where he got this lie from?, sure he made it up to suit his low desires as everyone can see
how come the above two verses will be talking about Islam if they are CLEARLY TALKING about Iman?
That low human should go and burry his pin and confused head in a toilet somewhere then he should flush it
Sorry admin, he brought it to himself and I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m going to hammer him to expose his lies to everyone
He kept attacking me and you did nothing about it and now it is time to pay, however I still used his evidences to prove that he is a clear cut liar ands a deceiver, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure having liars and deceivers on this web site are not something good for it
Salam All
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 6:07 pm
Post subject:
Tanveer said on FM:
Peace all,
As everyone can notice, 2:62 and 5:69 also mention jewish, nazarenes and sabiens and not only believers, and everyone knows that the system is named islam in al-qur'aan so all the portions talking about the system and all qur'aanic teachings imply islam.
Also according to 22:77-78, mumins are directly called muslims so 2:62 also talks about muslims as it talks about mumins.
The "fluent" Arab who doesn't know 2 meanings of "lamma" and proved himself to be blind above, struck out again.
AB, keep doing it to yourself and keep it coming
- Mon 19 Feb, 2007 6:08 pm
Post subject:
Hello all
Let me show a compelling proof that that guy is a deceiver, a liar, an ignorant and a fabricator:
He is telling us below in red that Ibrahim is not a Mumin rather a Muslim: