Sanitarium wrote:
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Okay there are a lot of muslims (and muslim leaders) who assert that the Torah and Injeel (the Bible) have been corrupted by men over time;
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Sanitarium wrote:
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this is to say the actual text of these scriptures have been corrupted and therefore cannot be relied apon.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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Does the Quran say that the Scriptures are corrupt, or something else?
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Quran 2:59
But those who were unjust changed it for a saying other than that which had been spoken to them, so We sent upon those who were unjust a pestilence from heaven, because they transgressed.
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Quran 2:75
Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this).
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Quran 2:78 - 79
And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.
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Quran 2:140
Nay! do you say that Ibrahim and Ismail and Yaqoub and the tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Are you better knowing or Allah? And who is more unjust than he who conceals a testimony that he has from Allah? And Allah is not at all heedless of what you do
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Quran 3:78
Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah whilst they know.
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Quran 3:187
And when Allah made a covenant with those who were given the Book: You shall certainly make it known to men and you shall not hide it; but they cast it behind their backs and took a small price for it; so evil is that which they buy.
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Quran 4:46
Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.
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Quran 5:13
But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).
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Quran 5:41
O Messenger! let not those grieve you who strive together in hastening to unbelief from among those who say with their mouths: We believe, and their hearts do not believe, and from among those who are Jews; they are listeners for the sake of a lie, listeners for another people who have not come to you; they alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious; and as for him whose temptation Allah desires, you cannot control anything for him with Allah. Those are they for whom Allah does not desire that He should purify their hearts; they shall have disgrace in this world, and they shall have a grievous chastisement in the hereafter.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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Okay so the majority of the verses above do make the claim that The Jews have Corrupted their scripture.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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However, many of them say that the Jews corrupted the scriptures with their tongues ie. They read what was in the written scriptures, and told the illiterate people that they said something other than what the scripture said; the Quran claims they did it for their own material gain.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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There is one verse that says: ..And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
So some illiterates either had not read the Scriptures that the Jews Had, or couldn't read them, and these were the ones physically writing false scripture.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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However the Quran states that the majority of the Jews (ie. not the illiterates) had the previous scripture WITH them, and they should confirm what the Quran is saying, by looking to their own Taurat[/color][/b]:
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Quran 2:89
And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers.
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Quran 2:91
And when it is said to them, Believe in what Allah has revealed, they say: We believe in that which was revealed to us; and they deny what is besides that, while it is the truth verifying that which they have. Say: Why then did you kill Allah's Prophets before if you were indeed believers?
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Quran 2:97
Say: Whoever is the enemy of Jibreel-- for surely he revealed it to your heart by Allah's command, verifying that which is before it and guidance and good news for the believers.
Same as before: verifying that which is before it
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Quran 2:101
And when there came to them a Messenger from Allah verifying that which they have, a party of those who were given the Book threw the Book of Allah behind their backs as if they knew nothing.
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Quran 3:3
He has revealed to you the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Tavrat and the Injeel aforetime, a guidance for the people, and He sent the Furqan.
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Quran 3:81
And when Allah made a covenant through the prophets: Certainly what I have given you of Book and wisdom-- then an messenger comes to you verifying that which is with you, you must believe in him, and you must aid him. He said: Do you affirm and accept My compact in this (matter)? They said: We do affirm. He said: Then bear witness, and I (too) am of the bearers of witness with you.
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Quran 4:47
O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.
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Quran 5:48
And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed:
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Quran 6:92
And this is a Book We have revealed, blessed, verifying that which is before it, and that you may warn the metropolis and those around her; and those who believe in the hereafter believe in it, and they attend to their prayers constantly.
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Quran 10:37
And this Quran is not such as could be forged by those besides Allah, but it is a verification of that which is before it and a clear explanation of the book, there is no doubt in it, from the Lord of the worlds.
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Quran 12:111
In their histories there is certainly a lesson for men of understanding. It is not a narrative which could be forged, but a verification of what is before it and a distinct explanation of all things and a guide and a mercy to a people who believe.
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Quran 20:133
And they say: Why does he not bring to us a sign from his Lord? Has not there come to them a clear evidence of what is m the previous books?
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Quran 35:31
And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which is before it; most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing.
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Quran 37:37
Nay: he has come with the truth and verified the messengers.
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Quran 46:12
And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good.
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Quran 46:30
They said: O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which is before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path:
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Sanitarium wrote:
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So we know that the previous scriptures were WITH the Jews at the time Muhammad was revealing the Quran.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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This makes it highly likely that Muhammad and Allah have accused Jews of that time of Perverting the Written Scriptures with their tongues, to the illiterate people who would not know better (because they couldn't read them themselves).
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Sanitarium wrote:
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There is one verse that says: ..And there are among them illiterates who know not the Book but only lies, and they do but conjecture.
So some illiterates either had not read the Scriptures that the Jews Had, or couldn't read them, and these were the ones physically writing false scripture.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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Was Allah only talking about the Torah? Or both the Torah and Gospels?
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Quran 3:84
Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
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Quran 4:136
O you who believe! believe in Allah and His Messenger and the Book which He has revealed to His Messenger and the Book which He revealed before; and whoever disbelieves in Allah and His angels and His messengers and the last day, he indeed strays off into a remote error.
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Quran 5:43-48
And how do they make you a judge and they have the Taurat wherein is Allah's judgment? Yet they turn back after that, and these are not the believers.
Surely We revealed the Taurat in which was guidance and light; with it the prophets who submitted themselves (to Allah) judged (matters) for those who were Jews, and the masters of Divine knowledge and the doctors, because they were required to guard (part) of the Book of Allah, and they were witnesses thereof; therefore fear not the people and fear Me, and do not take a small price for My communications; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unbelievers.
And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.
And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).
And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the transgressors.
And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced-out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.
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Quran 7:157
Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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so we find that the Quran talks about the Taurat and Injeel,
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Sanitarium wrote:
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as both being uncorrupted.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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The Quran even appeals to these previous scriptures; muslims, christians and Jews should look to the previous scriptures to confirm what Allah/Quran is saying,
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Sanitarium wrote:
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and for prophecies of the coming of Muhammad.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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If the scriptures were corrupted, then why would Allah be telling people to confirm with the previous (corrupted) scriptures,
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Sanitarium wrote:
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what he was saying? This lends credibility to the fact that the Quran asserts that the Jews corrupted the Torah with their Tongues (recitations) and that the actual written text never was corrupt.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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So having Textual copies of all three Books (Bible OT & NT and the Quran), why aren't muslims reading their Quran, and following its directive?
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Sanitarium wrote:
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If all books were revealed by Allah, and they are not corrupt
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Sanitarium wrote:
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(note no one has been able to ever prove the texts have been corrupted
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Sanitarium wrote:
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quote the opposite). The Quran says to look at the Previous scriptures (this is the Bible) to confirm what the Quran is saying.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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What do you do if the Bible conflicts with the Quran?
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Sanitarium wrote:
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The Quran doesn't claim to abrogate anything in the Previous scriptures;
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Sanitarium wrote:
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it just says that it is an explanation of some of the Biblical stories.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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If this is true, then we could expect to see expansion/more information on the stories contained within the bible, but contradictions should not be present.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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If we find contradiction between the Bible and Quran, then the Quran has failed its own challenge and thus therefore be disregarded.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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Contradictions include complete differences in events, stories and characters.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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I guess we could let Allah
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Sanitarium wrote:
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slide on the Name of the Deity (if we're being picky perhaps his 100th name is Yaweh lol).
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Sanitarium wrote:
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Example the Quran says that Ibrahim was going to sacrifice Ishmael, however the Bible says Isaac.
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Sanitarium wrote:
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The Bible also goes into more detail regarding Ishmael that the Quran doesn't cover. Is this because the rest of the Story of Ishmael is covered enough in the Bible? If so, why does the Biblical account of Ishmael contradict that of the Quran?
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Sanitarium wrote:
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That's just one example. What does everyone else think?
-Sanitarium
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Hmmm, I think Sanitarium is stupid, dumb, ignorant, arrogant, liar, confused and most importantly a clear cut enemy of Allah that should be dismissed in the rubbish bin for good
Salam All
- Wed 03 Jan, 2007 11:40 am
Post subject:
Hello All
What I would like to discuss in relation to all the above are the followings points:
1) How many of the Christians and the Bible itself claim that it is corrupted
2) How the prophecy about a messenger, mentioned in the OT is fulfilled
3) How the prophecy about a messenger, mentioned in the NT is fulfilled
4) How the Quran can verify the Bible as we have been told numerous times in the Quran
I will post each item as one comment or a serious of comments, so please bear with me
Salam
- Thu 04 Jan, 2007 7:37 am
Post subject:
Hopefully, i will try to add my 2cents. Just joined a new company as this is a start of my career not able to give much time but manage to read your posts.
I am waiting for your comments itsnot sanitarium its sanitary throw her into a potty and flush her. Nice way of demeaning the muslims.
- Sat 06 Jan, 2007 9:08 am
Post subject:
Salam Abu Hamze and SOA
Hope you are having a great new year
Salam
- Sat 06 Jan, 2007 9:11 am
Post subject:
Hello All
In regard to the alleged corruption in the Bible, the best thing to prove it is to let one of the ex Christians who reverted to Islam todo the talks, I know many of them and I choose this very knowledgable man, his new Muslim name is Abdullah Smith and he is going to tell us about all the followings:
The Quran V.S. the Bible.
The rejected verses of the Bible.
The Crucifixion Hoax.
(The �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¢�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¬�???????Atonement�??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¢�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¬�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¢ doctrine of paganism).
Mark was the first writer to record the crucifixion, yet he was NOT an eye-witness).
The Anti-Christ Paul.
Paul the Corrupter.
Jesus Contradicts Himself.
The Bible says Jesus broke the Law.
Contradictions in the Psalms.
The Bible says Jesus was a Liar.
The Romantic Origins of Christianity.
Christianity Contradicts the Bible!
Did Matthew exist in Hebrew?
Difficult Questions for the Church.
Parallel Passages in the Bible.
Women in Christianity.
The Genealogies of Jesus Christ.
Historical Errors in the Gospels.
Paul Contradicts himself.
Contradictions between Jesus and God.
Genesis 1:26 Re-interpreted.
The Suffering Servant of Isaiah.
Was Jesus poisoned?
Where was Jesus Crucified?
The Death of Judas.
The False Jesus of Christianity.
Did Jesus Have Female Breasts?
Bikini Christianity.
The Date of Jesus�??????�?????�????�???�??�?�¢�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¬�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¢ Crucifixion.
The Legend of Five Hundred Witnesses.
Do Christians Exist?
Is Jesus the Lamb of God?
The Invention of Christianity.
Was Jesus Sinless?
The Resurrection Hoax.
Jesus Survived the Cross.
The Pagan Origins of the Cross.
Forgery of Matthew 23.
So it is going to take me a few weeks to finish the above, pretty intersting subjects indeed and because the matter is very serious we need to put enough time studying it
Cheers
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