www19org wrote:
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Code 19
(Summary from upcoming book On it 19, Edip Yuksel)
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www19org wrote:
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The miraculous function of the number 19 prophesized in Chapter 74 was unveiled in 1974 through a computerized analysis of the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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Though, in retrospect, the implication of 19 in Chapter 74 traditionally called Hidden One, were obvious,
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www19org wrote:
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it remained a secret for 1406 (19x74) lunar years after the revelation of the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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Ironically, the first words of the Chapter 74, The Hidden One, was revealing,
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www19org wrote:
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yet the code was a divinely guarded gift allocated to the computer generation;
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www19org wrote:
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they were the one who would need and appreciate it the most.
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www19org wrote:
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As we have demonstrated in various books, hundreds of simple and complex algorithms, we witness the depth and breath of mathematical manipulation of Arabic, an arbitrary human language, to be profound and extraordinary.
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www19org wrote:
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This is the fulfillment of a Quranic challenge (17:88).
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www19org wrote:
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While the meaning of the Quranic text and its literal excellence was kept,
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www19org wrote:
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all its units, from chapters, verses, words to its letters were also assigned universally recognizable roles in creation of mathematical patterns.
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www19org wrote:
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Since its discovery, the number 19 of the Quran and the Bible has increased the faith of many believers, has removed doubts in the minds of many People of the Book, and has caused discord, controversy and chaos among those who have traded the Quran with men-made sectarian teachings. This is indeed a fulfillment of a Quranic prophecy (74:30-31).
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www19org wrote:
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Various verses of the Quran mention an important miracle that will appear after its revelation.
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They say, "How come no miracle came down to him from his Lord?" Say, "The future belongs to God; so wait, and I am waiting along with you." (10:20)
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www19org wrote:
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This is a reminder for the world. And you will certainly find out in awhile. (38:87-88)
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We will show them our signs/miracles in the horizons, and within themselves, until they realize that this is the truth. Is your Lord not sufficient as a witness of all things? (41:53)
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The beginning of Chapter 25 refers to the arguments of the opponents who denied the divine nature of the Quran:
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Those who disbelieved said, "This is a fabrication that he produced, with the help of some other people." They have uttered a blasphemy and a falsehood. They also said, "Tales from the past that he wrote down; they were dictated to him day and night." (25:4-5)
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www19org wrote:
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The awaited miracle, the hidden mathematical structure
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www19org wrote:
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The subsequent verse gives an enigmatic answer to the assertion of those who claimed that the Quran is manmade.
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Say, "This was revealed by the One who knows the SECRET in the heavens and the earth. He is Forgiving, Merciful." (25:6)
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www19org wrote:
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How can knowing the secret ? constitute an answer for those who assert that the Quran is Muhammad's work?
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Will the proof or evidence of the divine authorship of the Quran remain a secret known by God alone?
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Or, will the antagonists be rebuffed by that divine mystery? If there should be a relationship between the objection and answer, then we can infer from the above verse that a SECRET will demonstrate the divine nature of the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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The miracle promised throughout the Quran might have been destined to appear after Muhammad's death:
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We have sent messengers before you, and we made them husbands with wives and children. No messenger can produce a miracle without God's authorization, and in accordance with a specific, predetermined time. God erases and fixes whatever He wills. With Him is the original Master Record. Whether we show you some of what we promise them, or terminate your life before that, your sole mission is to deliver (the message). It is on us the reckoning. (13:38-40)
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www19org wrote:
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The last phrase of verse 13:40 quoted above is interesting, The meaning of this phrase becomes clearer after the discovery of Code 19, since the Arabic word HeSaaB ? refers to both the day of judgment ? and numerical computation. ?
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www19org wrote:
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The deliberate use of multi-meaning words is very common in the Quran. For instance, the word AaYAh ? occurs 84 times in the Quran and in all occurrences it means miracle, ? sign ? or law. ? However, its plural form AaYAat ? also means revelation ? or verses of the Quran. ? This unique usage equates minimum three verses of the Quran (in Arabic, a different form is used for duality) with miracle. It also pulls our attention to the parallelism between God's signs/laws in the universe and God's revelation in human language: they share the same source and the same truth. In the following verse the plural word AaYAat ? is used not to mean revelation ? but miracle, sign or physical manifestation ?:
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Are they waiting for the angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some physical manifestations of your Lord? The day this happens, no person will benefit from believing if it did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, "Keep on waiting; we too are waiting." (6:158)
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www19org wrote:
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The verse 30 of Chapter 74, Al-Muddassir (The Hidden/The Secret) of the Quran reads exactly, Over it Nineteen. ?
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The entire chapter is about the number 19. Let's read the chapter from the beginning.
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In the Name of God, Gracious, Merciful
1. O you the hidden one!
2. Come out and warn.
3. Extol your Lord.
4. Purify your garment.
5. Forsake what is wrong.
6. Be content with your lot.
7. Be steadfast for your Lord.
8. When the declaration is made.
9. That will be a difficult day.
10. For the disbelievers, not easy.
11. Let Me deal with one I created as an individual.
12. I provided him with lots of wealth.
13. And children to behold.
14. I made everything easy for him.
15. Yet, he is greedy for more.
16. He stubbornly rejected our revelations/miracles.
17. I will commit him to an uphill task.
18. For he reflected, then decided.
19. Miserable is what he decided.
20. Miserable indeed is what he decided.
21. He looked.
22. He frowned and whined.
23. Then he turned away arrogantly.
24. He said, "This is but impressive/old magic!
25. "This is nothing but word of human."
26. I will commit him to Saqar.
27. Do you know what Saqar is?
28. It is not more, not less (precise).
29. Succeeding manifestations/obvious for people (universal).
30. Over it is nineteen.
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What if Rashad did not planned it that way?
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What if you are just making it up?
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Was not he was astronomically lucky that he could make the time of his declaration coincide with 1974 and 1406 (19*74). According to you, he was able to set the time of his birth and his discovery so that number 19 being mentioned in chapter 74 would have such an incredible feature; that is, the juxtaposition of these two numbers and their product, BOTH would relate to the time of his discovery? Again, as a matter of sheer luck, the name (The Hidden one) of the chapter too catered to his lie? Don't you give too much power to Rashad? The power to manipulate time and arrangement of the Quran before his birth?
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Furthermore, had you cared to think about the consequence of your rejection of one of the greatest prophecies and divine signs, you would sit down and ask yourself the following question: This guy started hatching an egg, his fake research, in 1969 and published articles and then a book in 1973 about the statistics of Quranic initials, which made him an instant celebrity in the Muslim world, and somehow wanted to keep the real deal secret until one or two years later? Would a crook risk such an egg to be discovered by someone else, since there were numerous signs, though not very open at that time, about the common code among them?
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Besides, until late 1980's Rashad emphasized the year of the popularity of his discovery to be 1976. I know that he had no clue about the importance of the year of his discovery, which is 1974, until late 1980s. Until he became aware of the significance of 1974, he thought the year his work became popular in the Muslim world was important, since it was divisible by 19.
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Like all those who made up their minds to reject God's signs, you hang on your unjustified speculations and conjecture. The Day of Judgment you will see how flimsy your excuses had been.
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I am glad that you did not deny the meaning of al Muddathir.
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www19org wrote:
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In my understanding, the first verse of the chapter refers at least to three things.
1. Muhammad.
2. Rashad
3. The prophetic role of the number 19.
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www19org wrote:
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The rich language of the Quran is a unique feature and it perfectly fits its prophetic nature and its stated purpose, to remind all humanity until the end of the world as Gods final book.
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Fine but not to stretch it to a degree to treat the prophetic role of code 19 as a human, this is insane
I will continue later on inshaallah
Salam all
- Sun 06 May, 2007 3:43 am
Post subject: 70 Doors of Hell
BAHGAT: That is right, now the Muddathir under Edip understanding must mean '????The Hidden Sign , as well the word IT in '????Over it Ninteen must be referring to '????the Quran , i.e. Over the Quran is 19, the word IT is represented in the Arabic text by the DAMIR HA in the word AlaiHA, this DAMIR is feminine, i.e. it can't be the Quran because the Quran is masculine, i.e. if it is the Quran then it has to be HU, i.e. AlaiHU.
According to brother Edip understanding, the word IT then must be referring to the feminine Arabic word SIGN, in that case the words Over it Ninteen must be as follow: Over the SIGN is Ninteen , this does not make full sense, does it mean that the Sign is based on the number 19?, I guess so but I would like brother Edip to confirm please.
YUKSEL:: Now, the reason for brother Bahgat's denial is exposed like a lost zebra trying to keep her balance on top of a loose icecap melting away in Antarctica. Brother Baghdat has indeed blinded himself to the simplest signs that even a student at sixth grade could notice. My purpose is not to insult him. But, his arrogant and dogmatic reaction to code 19 has blinded him to simple facts. This is a self-inflicted problem (7:146). I challenge my readers to take the Arabic original of verse 74:25-30 to Arabic speaking sixth graders, or its accurate English translation to English speaking sixth graders, provided that the latter group will be informed about the nature of feminine and masculine words in Arabic language; they will immediately locate the reference of the pronoun HA (it or feminine she) of verse 74:30. Knowing how the unappreciative people lose the sight of such an obvious reference, and how they come up with silly arguments, I addressed the issue in detail in an article titled, "Which One Do You See: Hell or Miracle?", which you will see below.
BAHGAT: This is an over statement,, the number 19 was only mentioned once, so to claim that the entire chapter is about the number 19 is nothing but wishful thinking really, let me start the sura from the beginning and see if the entire chapter is about the number 19:
As you can see above, I kept my words to the min, I can't see that the sura for the first 20 verse is talking about the number 19 as brother Edip claimed, there is two main subjects the above 20 verses have talked about so far:
1) The Muddathir
2) The JD
Please keep in mind that the whole sura is 56 verses, 20 out of those verses are not talking about any numbers whatsoever, this is 37%, this is why I said that the statement of brother Edit is very stretched that the whole sura is about the number 19, so far we have 37% of the sura is not about any numbers, I will keep updating the percentage as I progress in the sura inshaallah.
YUKSEL:: A careful and objective reader will notice that short verses build and prepare the reader to verse 74:30 and the verses afterwards describe the function of the number 19 and the reaction of people to it. Verse 74:30 is the longest verse in the Quran in proportion to the average length of verses in the chapters they belong. The reader, at the start, encounters "the hidden one" and is informed about a typical profile of an arrogant and ignorant antagonist with a fast paced series of short descriptions that lead to a question and a enigmatic answer in 74:30. The enigma is described in cryptic, yet prophetic words of in 74:31. Later, following a powerful emphasis on the importance of the prophecy, verse 74:37 describes those who would witness the prophetic fulfillment of these verses as "progressive" and depicts those who deprive themselves from such a blessing as "regressive" people. The rest of the chapter elaborates on the characteristics of two groups and connects them to their reaction to the prophetic message (ZiKRa).
BAHGAT: The above description of that type of human can be the description for those who reject code 19, this is because all those Muslims who reject code 19 and consider it a fabrication by R K, don't consider the Quran a fabrication, we don't say that the Quran : فَقَالَ إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا سِحْرٌ يُؤْثَرُ (24) Then he said: This is naught but enchantment, narrated (from others) , nor we say: إِنْ هَذَا إِلَّا قَوْلُ الْبَشَرِ (25) , This is naught but the word of a mortal.
YUKSEL:: These verses, which are not the words of humans with limited knowledge, but divine description of unappreciative people of all colors and stripes, perfectly describe both those who reject the entire Quran and those who reject a prophecy or a sign of the Quran. No wonder, to accomplish this timeless and prophetic description, the author of the Quran deliberately leaves open he reference of HAZA (this) in verse 74:24-25. In brief, "Haza" (this) refers to the whole Quran as well as its parts or any event prophesized by its verses/signs. You belong to a regressive group that rejects the prophecy foretold in this chapter, a group that do not appreciate awesome meaning embedded in numerous Quranic signs and elements, such as the meaning and function of 29 initial letter/number combinations, the number of chapters being 114, the numerical aspect of divine attributes, the meaning of missing Basmalah in the beginning of chapter 9 and its restoration 19 chapters, and many more. In sum, you profess faith in a book because of the number of people surrounding you or similar fallacies, while the Quran wants you to accept it based on mathematical evidence, knowledge and rational inferences. Your faith will not lead where the Quran leads, but it will lead you only to conventional ignorance or your wishful thinking.
BAHGAT:
In a previous discussion with brother Edip, I believe he claims that SAQAR means something , sort of in the mind, well, SAQAR actually does not mean Jahannam as a whole, it will be illogical to take it as such, in fact it should mean part or a section in Jahannam, we know well that Jahannam has 7 gates and for each gate there will be a certain residents, therefore it is more proper to take SAQAR as one of these 7 sections of Hell, in fact Allah has told us about other sections of those 7 sections if not all of them, I will need to confirm that later on inshalllah, here is 5 verses that talk about another section of those 7 sections of hell called Al Hotamah, and you can see clearly how these verses about Al Hotamah rims almost identically (context wise) with 74:26-30:
Compare these 5 verses with 74:26-30 and you get the sense that Allah is talking about almost the same thing, both SAQARand Al Hotamah must be almost the same thing.
"And what will make you realize what SAQAR is?" [74:27]
"And what will make you realize what Al Hotamah is?" [104:5]
YUKSEL: You appear to know the Hell pretty well and you are now venturing to identify its gates and hang the labels on each door. You are not alone. All those who cannot see the mathematical miracle of the Quran are doomed to see Hell. When they debate the issue, they indulge in analysis of fire and hell; an outsider may see them as Hell-experts. This is exactly where they will end up if they maintain their opposition to God's signs in the scripture and nature.
As for similarities between the questions, Indeed the questions are similar; but the answers are different. You confused the answers. I teach logic courses at college and it had you used this line of reasoning in your final paper you would perhaps flunk the class.
Here are some clues:
"And what will make you realize what Day of DEEN is?" (82:18)
"And what will make you realize what ILLIYUN is?" (83:19)
"And what will make you realize what TAREQ is?" (86:2)
"And what will make you realize what the Night of QADR is?" (97:2)
According to your "similarities" test, they all must be other doors of Hell! With this kind of reasoning you will surely have more than 7 doors for the Hells of your imagination, my brother.
- Sun 06 May, 2007 3:50 am
Post subject: Which One Do You See: Hell or Miracle?
Which One Do You See:
HELL OR MIRACLE?
By Edip Yuksel
www.19.org
From the smoke of hell-fire in their minds, hypocrites and unappreciative people are not able to witness one of the greatest miracles.
I know that the title and the subtitle of this article are quite challenging. If you have developed an attitude against witnessing the mathematical miracle of the Quran, you are justified to get upset with these words and perhaps get little angry. You might have already blinded your eyes and closed your ears with one or more false, contradictory, trivial, or irrelevant excuses, such as:
1. God uses literary styles to prove the authenticity of His word; but not mathematics. God is not a mathematician and His word has nothing to do with math.
2. If Muhammad was not aware of a mathematical miracle in the Quran, then it cannot be true. Muhammad knew everything in the Quran. The knowledge contained in the Quran is limited with Muhammad's knowledge and understanding more than 14 centuries ago.
3. If I accept a mathematical structure in the Quran based on number 19, then I will be denying two Quranic verses in the end of Chapter 9, and thus would contradict the majority of Muslims and their manuscripts. Besides, I would be contradicting the verses guaranteeing the perfect preservation of the Quran.
4. Some verses of the Quran are Mutashabih; none can understand their meaning except God. The proponents of 19-based mathematical system in the Quran are indulging in those Mutashabih verses.
5. The number 19 is heresy, since it is the holy number of Bahai sect.
6. Though I can balance my check and shop in the stores, I am innumerate when it comes to the 19.
7. We can find many mathematical phenomena if we spend enough time on any book. For instance, the Bible Code claimed that the distorted translations of the Bible contain impressive coded prophecies.
8. The Quran cannot contain secrets, mysteries or prophecies; it is a clear book.
9. What about the previous generations; will they all go to hell?
10. The claim of a 19-based mathematical code is a mythology.
11. The claim of a 19-based mathematical code is a magic.
12. There are many other numbers in the Quran and the number 19 has no special place.
13. There are problems in the count of letters or words. For instance, the first verse of the Quran does not have 19 letters; it has 18, 20, 21, or 22 letters, but not 19. For instance, the counts of A.L.M. letters have errors.
14. Part of the numerical claim is based on the Gematria system (ABJAD), a Jewish fabrication and a deceptive tool used by numerologists and astrologists.
15. The pronoun "it" in verse 74:30 is feminine and it refers to Hell not the Quran. Thus verse 74:30-31 is about guardians of hell, not a mathematical proof of authenticity.
16. Even if there is such a code in the Quran it is not important. We need to follow the instruction of the book. We need to focus on how to fight against infidels.
17. The discoverer of Code 19 claimed to be the messenger of God. He deserved divine retribution. Thus, he was killed in early 1990 by an Al-Qaida affiliate American cult, al-Fuqra, as Al-Qaida's first act in the USA.
18. If we believe in code 19, then we would end up rejecting holy teachings of Hadith and Sunnah.
19. Code 19 is a Zionist trick.
20. I already believe in the Quran and I do not need miracles.
21. I believe in the Quran because its message is true.
22. I believe in the Quran because it does not contain contradictions.
23. I believe in the Quran on blind faith and I do not need any reason for my belief.
24. And, many more excuses, reasons or lack of them...
I will deal with all these excuses, and God willing, I will respond each of them one by one; but first thing first:
Whatever are your EXCUSES or REASONS to ignore, reject, or ridicule the number 19, this article will expose your true intentions, which you might be trying to hide even from yourself (11:5). If you are claiming to believe in the Quran, and after reading this article still continue ignoring or ridiculing the mathematical code of the Quran, you will be TORMENTED all your life by repeatedly witnessing an exciting fact and losing its sight afterwards, like a person who witnesses succeeding events of lightning in the darkness (2:17-20). You will neither appreciate nor comprehend the miracle, nor will you be satisfied with your denial. You will perpetually oscillate between momentary belief end prolonged disbelief, between private doubt and public denial. You will be doomed to SAQAR here and in the hereafter.
But, if you have faith and gained some goodness in your faith, then this article, by God's will, may wake you up from ignorance, and may change your paradigm (6:158). You will never be the same; you will be among the progressives (74:30-37). You will be one of the few who are blessed by God to witness one of the greatest miracles. You will be sure about your faith, a faith not based on self-deceptive claims, on conformity with a religious group, or on blind faith, or wishful thinking; but a faith based on knowledge gathered from empirical and rational evidence corroborated by spiritual experience (41:53; 74:31). You will experience God's presence in your life and attain happiness promised to believers and submitters (9:124; 10:64; 16:89). You will dedicate all your life to serve God alone without remorse or fear (2:62; 3:170; 10:62; 46:13). You will understand many Quranic verses that had not much meaning for you (2:1,108). Every time you see an unappreciative disbeliever denying or mocking the 19-based system, your knowledge-based faith will be justified. And the more people do not see what you and few others have witnessed will increase the importance, power and the wonder of the prophetic description of 74:31 in your mind. You will attain certainty (74:31; 27:1-3; 2:260; 13:2; 2:118; 45:20). However, witnessing this miracle will also put some responsibility on you (5:115; 47:25).
Let's start from the translation of verses 21-37 of chapter 74, The Hidden One:
74:21 He looked.
74:22 He frowned and scowled.
74:23 Then he turned away arrogantly.
74:24 He said, "This is but an impressive illusion/magic!"
74:25 "This is human made."
74:26 I will cast him into SAQAR!
74:27 And what will explain to you what the SAQAR is?
74:28 It leaves nothing, it lets nothing (NOT MORE, NOT LESS; PRECISE; PERFECT);
74:29 VISIBLE (LAWAHATUN) to PEOPLE (BASHAR) (universal)!
74:30 On it is Nineteen.
74:31 As guardians of fire we appointed none except angels, and we assigned their number (1) to torment the unappreciative disbelievers, (2) to convince People of the Book, (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of People of the Book, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who have disease in their hearts, and the unappreciative disbelievers; they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills (or, whoever wills), and guides whomever He wills (or, whoever wills). None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. IT (HIYA) is a reminder for the people.
74:32 Indeed, by the Moon.
74:33 By the night as it passes.
74:34 And the morning as it shines.
74:35 This (NUMBER) is one of the GREATEST (KUBRA).
74:36 A WARNING (NAZEER) for the PEOPLE (BASHAR).
74:37 For those who want to progress or regress.
Though the function of 19 is listed in Chapter 74, conventionally known Muddassir (The Hidden One), its implication and fulfillment was kept hidden according to God's will as the Quran's secret for 19x74 lunar years after its revelation to Muhammad. However, the All-wise God, unveiled this secret via a monotheist scientist in 1974, according to the most commonly used calendar, a calendar allegedly based on the birth of Jesus, which is considered a holy day and the sign of the End (19:15). As a result, the number 19, as the miraculous code of the Quran and the Bible strengthened and continue to strengthen the faith of believers, removed and continue to remove doubts in the heart of people of the book, and intellectually tormented and continue to torment hypocrites and unappreciative disbelievers.
Now let's first discuss the words written in CAPITAL letters in the translation of the verses above. Then, we will discuss each of the popular excuses used by the unappreciative disbelievers of the miracle 19.
We should understand the meaning of these words by first referring to their usage in the Quran. Their immediate context as well as their use in other verses is usually sufficient to illuminate their meanings. For believers who have been lucky to witness this great miracle, the meaning of the verses above is good news; it gives them hope, enlightens them, informs them, and turns their faith from wishful thinking or conjecture to knowledge-based faith. Thus, the rhetorical value of these verses is very high for believers:
74:27 ---> SAQAR (saqar, to be defined by the following verses)
74:28 ---> (NOT MORE, NOT LESS; PRECISE; PERFECT);
74:29 ---> LAWAHA (obvious; visible; tablet; screen)
74:29 ---> BASHAR (humans; people)
74:31 ---> HIYA (it; reference to the number 19)
74:31 ---> ZIKRA (reminder; message)
74:35 ---> HA (it; referring to the number 19)
74:35 ---> KUBRA (great miracles)
74:36 ---> NEZEER (warner to be embraced and supported)
On the other hand, those who have deprived themselves from witnessing the miracle 19 because of their ill intentions or their dogmatic rejection try hard to render these key words incompatible with the semantic context of the Quran. They conceive God of the Quran as an angry and despotic God who is not able provide any reasonable argument against those who question the Quran's authenticity, but only resorts to intimidation: "I will burn you in hell!!!" The God they depict has double standard: He asks the disbelievers to bring their evidence for their argument (2:111; 11:17; 21:24; 27:64; 28:75; 35:40) but for His argument He only wants to scare them! The opponents of 19-based miracle, by distorting the meaning of the words in these verses, manage to blind themselves to one of the most profound philosophical and theological arguments and evidences in history. Not only they divert themselves from the right path they try to divert others too (6:25-26; 22:3; 41:83).
Thus, the understanding (more accurately, the misunderstanding) of those who cannot appreciate God as He should be (6:90-91), the argument for Quran's authenticity is scorching, burning, dark, hellish, misfortune, disastrous, and scary. Thus, in the minds of opponents of miracle 19, the rhetorical value of these verses is simply a threat to burn and torture:
74:27 ---> SAQAR (hell-fire)
74:28 ---> (NEITHER LEAVES THE FLESH NOR THE BONES; DESTROYS CONTINUALLY);
74:29 ---> LAWAHA (scorching; burning; shriveling)
74:29 ---> BASHAR (skin)
74:31 ---> HIYA (it; referring to hell-fire)
74:31 ---> ZIKRA (news of disaster)
74:35 ---> HA (it; referring to hell-fire
74:35 ---> KUBRA (great punishment; gravest misfortune; dire scourge)
74:36 ---> NAZEER (warning to be escaped)
Now let's one by one discuss each of these words, which were widely and perhaps JUSTIFIABLY misunderstood by pre-1974 generations, and yet are intentionally distorted by the post-1974 opponents of one of the greatest miracles.
DOES "SAQAR" IN 74:27 MEAN HELL OR SOMETHING ELSE?
Though prominent Arabic dictionaries such as Lisan-ul Arab and specialized dictionaries such as Mufradat Fi Gharib-il Quran acknowledge that the word might be of foreign origin with no Arabic derivatives, these and other dictionaries and commentaries of the Quran do not hesitate defining it as hell or heat radiating from Sun. Lisan-ul Arab refers to a Hadith which uses a bizarre derivative of the word Saqar to mean "liars". The word SaQaR is mentioned four times in the Quran, three times in Chapter 74 and once in 54:48. In the later one, the word SaQaR is used in a statement warning that when criminals will be dragged to the fire they will be told: "taste the touch of Saqar". From this verse one might infer that Saqar is another word for fire; but a better inference is that Saqar is a negative feeling or state of mind one tastes after being committed to the divine punishment. In this case, there is no reason to think that this negative state of mind could not be obtained from experiences other than fire.
The Arabic word for hell is GaHyM or GaHaNnaM. The word NAR (Fire), though not a specific name for hell, is also frequently used to denote the same phenomenon. However, the word NAR (fire) is also used in its literal meaning, which is simply fire. For instance, verses 20:10-14 describe God's communication with Moses through fire. Obviously, this fire in the holy land where God spoke through cannot be the Hell. Similarly, the word SaQaR does not necessarily mean hell. In fact, the semantic connection of SaQaR with hell is allegorical, since SaQaR is a descriptive word derived from the verb SaQaRa rather than a noun like GaHYM, GaHaNnaM.
In any case, the verse 74:27 does not ask nor expect us to rush into defining the meaning of this word, which it appears to be its first usage in the Quran. We are warned against rushing to define Quranic words or attempting to preempt the Quranic definition by prematurely assigning a meaning to a verse before considering its immediate or Quranic context or fulfillment (20:114; 75:16-19). Doing so is a sign of pretension and arrogance. Since the word is rarely used in the Quran (total four and three of them is in this chapter) and this verse is most likely the first usage of this rare word, it is more appropriate to wait the Quran explain the word. In brief, rushing to limit/define the meaning of the word Saqar in the verse "Do you know what SaQaR is?" is a disrespectful act against the Quran. When the Quran asks "Do you know what X means?" it does not want us to try to understand the meaning of X in the very question about its meaning! It is a rhetorical question. God wants to pull your attention to its modified or new meaning. The Quran uses this question 13 times either to modify the meaning of an already used word or to add another nuance (See: 69:3; 74:27; 77:14; 82:17-18; 83:8, 19; 86:2; 90:12; 97:2; 101:3, 10; 104:5).
Nevertheless, we see that almost all commentators or translators of the Quran have rushed to translate SaQaR as Hell or Fire:
Yusuf Ali: "Soon I will cast him into Hell-Fire!"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "Him shall I fling unto the burning."
T.B. Irving: "I'll roast him by scorching!"
M. H. Shakir: "I will cast him into Hell."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "I will cast him into hell."
N. J. Dawood: "I will surely cast him to the fire of Hell. "
Muhammad Asad: "[Hence,] I shall cause him to endure hell-fire [in the life to come]!"
Rashad Khalifa: "I will commit him to retribution"
As you see, none leave the word SaQaR as it is. However, Rashad Khalifa, as the one who was chosen to fulfill this great prophecy, renders the word SaQar accurately by translating it with a general word, "retribution." Yasar Nuri Ozturk, a Turkish theology professor, in his post-1974 translation of the Quran, translated the word SaQaR under the light of the descriptive verses and related discoveries as the COMPUTER with succeeding screens manifesting the mathematical miracle of the Quran to all people.
So, we should not prime our minds or blind ourselves with prejudice by assuming SaQaR as HELL-FIRE before reading the following verses (75:16-19; 20:114).
DOES "IT LEAVES NOTHING; IT LETS NOTHING" IN 74:28 MEAN "EXACT, PRECISE" OR "DESTROYS FLESH AND BONES"?
Though the short verse is not generally mistranslated, but its meaning and implication is distorted. In the light of the context and post-1974 discoveries we should understand it is description of the 19-based mathematical structure that is exact. It does neither leave extra (BaQaYa) nor it let anything necessary go away (WaZaRa); in other words, it is perfect and precise; it is not one more not one less!
However, parroting the pre-1974 commentaries of the Quran, many translations and commentaries still convey the same misunderstanding. Since English translations usually do not comment on this particular verse and leave it to be understood within the context of CORPORAL PUNISHMENT, HELL and FIRE rather than the crucial role of the NUMBER NINETEEN, I will give you a sample of some popular Arabic commentaries of the Quran (which I have easy access in my personal library) in ascending chronological order. If the name of the commentary different than the name of the author his name will be indicated in the parenthesis. The number in parenthesis is the year of the authors' death:
Tabari (922): Neither kills nor leaves alive; or devours them all and when they are recreated do not leaves them until eating them.
Tha'alibi (1035): Does not leave the dweller of hell alone and burns them.
Bagawi (1122): Neither kills nor leaves alive; eats everything thrown in; does not leave their flesh nor take their bones.
Nasafi (1143): Does not leave the flesh nor does let the bones of its dwellers; destroys everything in it and then restores them back to their starting point.
Baydawi (1292): It does not leave anything thrown in and does not leave it until destroys it.
Qurtubi (1272): Does not leave for them neither flesh, nor bone, nor blood, but burns them. Or does not leave anything from them and then does not let them go when they are recreated.
Zad-ul Masir (Ibn Cawzi, 1200): Does not leave but destroys their flesh and does not let them go when they are recreated.
Ibn Kathir (1372): Eat their flesh, sweat, bones, and skin. They do not die in this condition or they live.
Jalalayn (Celaleddin, 1459): Destroys flesh and bones, then starts it again.
Ruh-ul Maani (Alusi 1853): Destroys flesh, bones of everything thrown in.
Interestingly, one can understand the verse as pre-1974 commentators understood. Though they all heavily relied on Hadith for understanding of this verse, and knowing that there were literally thousands competing to fabricate hadith for various reasons we cannot prove whether Muhammad and his believing friends too understood that way. In fact, since we know that Muhammad and his friends had no clue about the mathematical structure of the Quran but had faith in its promise of QURANIC MIRACLES being manifested in the future (10:20; 25:4-6; 29:50-51; 41:53), it is highly conceivable that they understood the fact that these verses were about the importance of the number 19 and that their meaning would be fulfilled in the future. I further assert that Muhammad and those who dedicated their religion to God alone by upholding the Quran as the sole authority in their religion, stopped speculating on these verses as soon as they received the divine instruction in 75:16-19. As we know, after Muslims started following the fabricated hadiths, sunnah, and man-made teachings of various sects (6:112-145; 6:159; 7:29; 9:31; 16:52; 18:57; 39:2,11;14; 39:29-37; 39:43-45; 40:14,65; 42:21; 98:5), they lost their capacity for understanding of the Quran (6:23-25; 17:46). (See FOOTNOTE 1 )
However, it is important to remember that the verses 74:26-37 contain many words that can be understood both a description of Hell and a description of a great miracle, though the later is a much better fit. This linguistically marvelous aspect is well appreciated by those who witness the mathematical miracle and understand the original language of the Quran.
DOES "LAWAHA" IN 74:29 MEAN SCORCHING/BURNING OR OBVIOUS/VISIBLE?
The derivatives of the word LWH are used in the Quran to mean a surface used for recording information, board, and flat wood; and nowhere is it used to mean scorch or burn. Before the fulfillment of the prophecy, translators and commentators of the Quran had difficulty in understanding the simple meaning of this word and thus, they resorted to external sources and often odd meanings, such as scorch, or burn. In fact, the drive to justify a particular meaning for some "difficult" Quranic words is one of the many reasons for fabricating Hadith. (See: FOOTNOTE 2).
Verse 74:29 is very interesting and crucial in understanding the rest of the chapter. Though it consists of only 2 words, this verse is translated in several different ways. Here are some examples from English Translations:
Yusuf Ali: "darkening and changing the color of man"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "It shrivelleth the man"
T.B. Irving: "as it shrivels human (flesh)."
M. H. Shakir: "It scorches the mortal."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "It scorches the mortal"
N. J. Dawood: "it burns the skins of men."
Muhammad Asad: "making (all truth) visible to mortal man."
Rashad Khalifa: "obvious to all the people."
Those who do not know Arabic might think that the words are really difficult to understand and translate. In fact, the meaning of these two words, LaWwaHa and BaSHaR is very clear in the Quranic context. The word LaWwaHa, which comes from the root LWH, is the sister of the word LaWH (85:22) and its plural aLWaH. The plural form aLWaH is used in verses 7:145, 150, 154 for the "tablets" given to Moses, and in verse 54:13 for broad planks used by Noah to build his ark. The medieval commentators, not knowing the mathematical implication of the verses, mostly chose an unusual meaning for the word: scorching, burning, shriveling, etc. Ironically, most of them did acknowledge the obvious meaning of the word as "open board, tablet" (See Baydawi, Fakhruddin Er-Razi, etc.) Few preferred the "obvious" to the obscure. For instance, Muhammad Asad, who had no idea of the mathematical code, preferred the most obvious meaning. Rashad Khalifa who fulfilled the prophecy and discovered the implication of the entire chapter reflected the same obvious meaning. That "obvious" meaning, however, was obscured by the smoke of "scorching fire" burning in the imaginations of generations before him.
In 7:145; 7:150; 7:154, the word alwah, the plural of lawha is used to depict the tablets on which the Ten Commandments were inscribed. In 54:13 it is used to describe the structure of the Noah's ship that made of wood panes. In 85:22 the same word is used for the mathematically protected record of the original version of the Quran. As for the lawaha of 74:29, it is the amplified noun-adjective derived from the root of verb LWH, meaning open tablets, succeeding screens, obvious, manifesto, or clearly and perpetually visible.
Ironically, the Quran uses different words to describe burning or scorching. For instance, for burning the derivatives of haraqa (2:266; 3:181; 7:5; 20:97; 21:68; 22:9; 22:22; 29:24; 75:10), or for scorching the derivatives of salaya ( 4:10; 4:30; 4:56; 4:115; 14:29; 17:18; 19:70; 27:7; 28:29; 29:31; 36:64; 38:56; 38:59; 38:163; 52:16; 56:94; 58:8; 69:31; 74: 26; 82:15; 83:16; 84:12; 87:12; 88:12; 92:15), or nadaja are used (4:56).
Again, we should note that the understanding of pre-1974 commentators was not without basis. Though their understanding did not rely on the Quranic usage of the words, and created some problems (such as explaining the verse 74:31), they had some justifiable excuses to understand the way they understood. The word lawaha also meant burn and bashara was another word for skin in Arabic language. As I mentioned above, the multiple meaning of these verses allowed the impatient pre-1974 generations to have an understanding, though a temporary and not primarily intended one. In fact, it was better for them to have patient and not rush to speculate on these verses without knowledge (20:114; 75:16-19). It was the computer generation destined to understand their real meaning (10:37-46).
DOES "BASHAR" IN 74:29 MEAN SKIN OR HUMAN?
The translation of the second word, BaSHaR is also among the distorted one. Many old commentaries translated it as "skin" rather then "human being" or "people" or "humans." For instance, N. J. Dawood parrots such a translation. The meaning of BaSHaR is also obvious in the context of the Quran. The word BASHAR occurs in the Quran 36 times. It is also mentioned as BASHARAYN (two bashars). If we exclude the BASHAR of 74:29 for the sake of the argument, we see that the word BASHAR is used to mean human beings in all 36 verses: 3:47; 3:79; 5:18; 6:91; 11:27; 12:31; 14:10; 14:11; 15:28; 15:33; 16:103; 17:93; 17:94; 18:110; 19:17; 19:20; 19:26; 21:3; 21:34; 23:24; 23:33; 23:34; 25:54; 26:104; 26:186; 30:20; 36:15; 38:71; 41:6; 42:51; 54:24; 64:6; 74:25; 74:29; 74:31; 74:36.
Then, why those who have allergy against the code 19 still insist to translate the word BaSHaR as skin while in its all 36 occurrences the word BaSHaR there is not a single instance where the word BaSHaR is used to mean skin; but always used to mean human beings? Especially, despite the fact that the word BASHAR occurs thrice in the same Chapter: after 74:29, in 74:31 and 74:36, and the fact that the verse 74:36 witnesses for the 36th times for "human beings," and that they were obliged to translate the last two occurrences as "human beings," how could they still insist on translating the BaSHaR of 74:29 as "skin." Since the prophetic verses did not make any sense for them before its fulfillment in 1974, translators and commentators of the Quran had an excuse to translate it differently before the fulfillment of the prophecy. However, after learning the discovery, none has an excuse to still continue parroting the overly stretched meaning.
Furthermore, the Quran uses "GeLD" for skin. This organic wrap that protects our body and provides tactile sense is referred in 13 verses with GLD and its derivatives: 4:56; 4:56; 16:80; 22:20; 24:2; 24:2; 24:4; 24:4; 39:23; 39:23; 41:20; 41:21; 41:22.
In short, while the Quran consistently uses GLD and its derivatives for skin and related words and while it consistently uses BShR for human beings, a convincing reason must be provided for ignoring all these examples and translating the BShR of 74:39 as "skin." The pre-1974 generations can be excused for trying to understand these verses even if it meant accepting some uncommon usages or dialects. As for post-1974 generation, if they are still stuck with hell and fire, then they share the same disease with the disbelievers of the past (2:75; 4:46; 5:13; 5:41).
After the fulfillment of the prophecy and divine clarification of its context, it is distortion to render this two-word verse 74:29 as "shrivels/scorches the skin" or "shrivels/scorches the man" rather than "it is clearly visible for human beings" or "it is a manifesto/successive-screens for human beings." However, the repetitive stretch and distortion committed by the post-1974 translators/commentaries on the many verses of Chapter 74 is bizarre and extraordinary. This pattern is prophetically described by verses 2:18; 3:7; 11:28; 41:44; 17:72; 25:73; 27:81.
DOES THE PRONOUN "HIYA" (SHE) IN THE END OF 74:31 REFER TO THE HELL OR TO THE NUMBER 19?
We know that verse 74:30 does not qualify the reference of 19. It pulls our attention to a NUMBER ALONE. The verse does not say "on it nineteen angles" or "on it nineteen guards" or "on it nineteen this or that." The verse says "on it nineteen." Period. Verse 74:31, after informing us that the number of guardians of hell is 19, isolates this number from hell again describes its role.
Yet, those whose minds stuck in Hell cannot even notice this evident emphasis to the number. Thus, they violate the general grammar rules and universal linguistic logic and identify the reference of HIYA (SHE) in the end of 74:31 as HELL FIRE.
According to the grammar rules and common linguistic logic, the reference of a pronoun should be sought in proximity first. Sure, if there is no compelling empirical or rational reason for skipping a closer noun. For instance, "Yesterday, at Mary's home I saw Lisa. She was very thoughtful." In this sentence grammar and logic leads us to think that the thoughtful person was Lisa not Mary. But, "Yesterday, in Delhi's streets on the back of an elephant I saw Lisa. She was swinging her trunk/hose left and right and walking majestically." (I had given the original example in Turkish and in Turkish the same word is used for both elephant's trunk and hose. For didactic purposes please assume that it is the same in English.) Though grammatically the best candidate for reference of SHE is Lisa, we have an empirical reason to ignore the general rule since the one who would swing her trunk/hose is the elephant. But if these sentences are in a story and if we are told that Lisa was walking in the street with a hose in her hand, then the SHE in the sentence may equally refer to elephant OR Lisa. There will be ambiguity and if it is intentionally done then we wonder the purpose of the ambiguity. But, if the sentences continue, "When she hit the trunk/hose in her hand to a store sign," then we become sure that it was a hose not trunk. "Your mother had given you a walnut and a book. Have you eat and finished it?" A sound mind can easily deduce that that "it" refers not to the book, but to the walnut. But, if the question were "Your mother had given you a walnut and a book. Have you finished it?" then, an ambiguity will arise. However, if the context of the question is known then we can deduce whether the query is about finishing the book or the walnut or both.
The pronoun HIYA (SHE), based on the rules of grammar, the emphasis of the verse in its context, and based on the rhetorical superiority of its meaning, must be referred to the grammatically feminine closest noun IDDATAHUM (their number, that is Nineteen). How can we explain the act of skipping IDDATAHUM (their number, Nineteen) by ignoring the grammar, context, emphasis, and rhetoric, and insisting to reach the FIRE?
We will see in the miraculously elegant and prophetic expression of the Quran that hypocrites and unappreciative people have deserved the SaQaR penalty both in this world and hereafter. In this world as the 19-based mathematical code of the Quran; they will be intellectually tormented by its powerful evidences. And in the hereafter as the 19 guards of symbolic hell-fire; they will be convicted to eternally face the number 19 in the presence of guarding angles. (See FOOTNOTE 3)
DOES THE "ZIKRA" (REMINDER) IN 74:31 REFER TO HELL OR THE EVIDENCE?
This brings us to the last phrase of verse 74:31 "it/this is a warning/reminder for mankind." Old commentaries and their parroting contemporaries refer "it/this" to the FIRE or HELL.
Those who have difficulty in accepting the possibility of an intellectual argument in The Hidden One (Muddathir), insert a HELL in the translation or the understanding of the last phrase of 74:31:
"This (HELL) is a warning for people."
This way, they transform the ZiKRa to a warning to be scared, to a penalty to avoid. However, all the derivatives of ZKR, including ZiKRa, are used in the Quran 273 times; and if we include DKR which is mentioned 7 times; this word is mentioned 280 times in the Quran and NOWHERE is it used to describe HELL or FIRE. You may check for yourself all the 21 verses where the word ZiKRa is mentioned: 6:68; 6:69; 6090; 7:2; 11:114; 11:120; 21:84; 26:209; 29:51; 38:43; 38:46; 39:21; 40:54; 44:13; 50:8; 50:37; 51:55; 74:31; 80:4; 87:9; 89:23. You may also check the two verses where the word is suffixed with pronouns ZiKRaha and ZiKRahum: 47:18; 79:43.
More interestingly, however, you will find another derivative of the same word "ZiKRa" (reminder) is used in verse 74:49 as "taZKiRa."
"Why do they turn away from this message/reminder (taZKiRa)?"
The disbelievers had ignored the reminder! Obviously, hell cannot be that reminder, since you are not supposed to embrace and face hell while you are alive on this earth. You are expected to turn away from Hell and turn to the message (taZKiRa). Therefore, taZKiRa and ZiKRa cannot be both HELL and the MESSAGE of the Quran. All the derivatives of ZKR are consistently used in the Quran for the divine message that revives and bestows eternal happiness.
Because of the self-ignited and self-inflicted hell fire burning in their minds, the disbelievers and hypocrites ignore the PLEASANT meaning associated to the word 280 times, and fight with us to keep it as HELL. Well, this was exactly what they were promised and what they deserve. Their initial decision, their prejudice, ignorance and arrogance, have led them to bet their faith on hell, a questionable one chance against 280 chances!
HOW DOES THE NUMBER NINETEEN INCREASE THE FAITH OF BELIEVERS AND ALSO REMOVE DOUBTS FROM THE MINDS OF PEOPLE OF THE BOOK AS PROMISED IN 74:31?
With the exception of Rashad Khalifa, all the translations and commentaries listed above have had big problem with this question. Since they did not accept it as a prophecy left to be fulfilled in the future, and since they rushed to speculate on them without knowledge, they dug a hole for themselves. Surely, they always could deceive themselves and others by claiming that THEIR FAITH was increased because of the association of the number 19 with the guardians of hell. This claim obviously would be a non-falsifiable claim. One can say anything about his or her own faith. However, this claim could not explain why specifically 19 and not another number or another thing. Let's assume they could pretend that their faith was really increased by the nineteen guardians of hell, but how could they explain the other functions of the number nineteen? How could this number nineteen remove the doubts of people of the book? The proponents of HELL-19 just could not make up an answer for this, since the issue involved an OBJECTIVE fact, not a subjective claim.
Interestingly, those who saw the Hell-fire in these prophetic verses claimed that the people of the book would believe in the Quran because they would see that the number of guardians of hell was also nineteen in their own books! What? Please read it again. Yes, this is the explanation of all the prominent Sunni and Shiite scholars of the past and unfortunately it is exactly parroted by the contemporary ones!
First, there is no such a statement in the Bible. Second, even if there was such a statement there would not be anything special about nineteen, since there are many principles, stories of prophets, and instructions mentioned in the Quran that are also in the Bible. In fact, the very existence of similarity had an opposite effect on many people of the book; they claimed and still claim that the Quran was plagiarized from the Bible. Third, none has been persuaded regarding the authenticity of the Quran because the number of guardians of hell is nineteen! I personally communicated and met dozens of Christians or Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran was removed because of their witnessing the mathematical miracle of the Quran based on the number nineteen. You can find some of these people on Internet forums. This is happening despite the aggressive misinformation and disinformation campaign carried out by numerous Sunni and Shiite groups. Compare the prophetic role of MIRACLE-19 to the role of HELL-19 in their powers of removing doubts from the minds of People of the Book. Two DECADES versus more than 14 CENTURIES, and several THOUSAND people versus more than a BILLION people.
The HELL-19 advocates cannot show a single Christian or Jew who converted to their version of Islam because their doubts were removed after they noticed that the number of guardians of hell is also 19 in their books! This failure alone should be sufficient to wake up those who are still eager to see Hell in these verses. Yet, they still shamelessly repeat this lie to defend their hellish version.
Some opponents of the CODE-19 even tried to use a phrase in verse 74:31 against understanding of the very verse. They quote the fifth function of the number nineteen, "to expose those who have disease in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, 'What did God mean by this allegory?'" and then charge us: "You 19ers are asking this question; therefore, you have disease in your hearts." First, none of us have asked this question, including Rashad Khalifa. We happened to learn the meaning of number nineteen even before asking such a question. We know the meaning of this allegory and we do not challenge that meaning. Furthermore, this question is not a question of a curious person who sincerely wants to learn the meaning of the Quran. This question is the challenge of arrogance and ignorance. It is a question that many still millions of Sunni and Shiite people are asking themselves. They will keep asking this question as long as they follow their ancestors blindly and worship Prophet Muhammad and religious scholars.
DOES THE "HA" IN 74:35 REFER TO HELL OR THE NUMBER 19? DOES THE WORD "KUBRA" IN THE SAME VERSE REFER TO "GREAT DISASTERS AND CALAMITIES" OR TO "GREAT SIGNS AND MIRACLES"?
When we reflect on the context and the usage of the words of verse "This is one of the greatest" we can easily deduce that this refers to the number 19 and its prophetic function as a conclusive evidence for the authenticity of the Quran and a great test for people. Unfortunately, many of those who did not witness the incredible mathematical structure based on the number 19, related this verse to Hell, again.
Let's one by one see several different translations of this verse. (Again, the pre-1974 translations have an excuse in their mistranslations since they did not witness the fulfillment of the prophecy of the mathematical miracle):
Yusuf Ali: "this is but one of the mighty (portents)"
Marmaduke Pickthall: "Lo! This is one of the greatest (portents)"
T.B. Irving: "Surely it is one of the gravest (misfortunes)."
M.H. Shakir: "Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)."
MaulaHUM Muhammad Ali: "Surely it is one of the gravest (misfortunes)"
N. J. Dawood: "it is a dire scourge."
Muhammad Asad: "Verily, that [hell-fire) is Indeed one of the great [forewarnings]"
Rashad Khalifa: "This is one of the greatest miracles."
I leave for you to assess the contextual reference of the pronoun in 74:35. Here, I will draw your attention to the descriptive word KuBeR, which is the plural of KaBeeR derived from KBR (great). The derivatives of KBR are used in the Quran to describe positive or negative events, people, or things. For instance, in verses 20:23; 44:16; 53:18; 79:20 it is used to describe God's ayaats or miracles. The derivatives of the same word are used for disaster in 79:34 and hell in 87:12.
In other words, if we do not consider the context of the group of verses, we may understand the reference of THIS IS ONE OF THE GREATEST as either HELL FIRE or one of God's greatest MIRACLES. Through this verse alone, one may see flames of fire or signs of a miracle. Nevertheless, considering the context of this verse it becomes clear that the first vision is a man-made hallucination and the later a divine gift.
DOES THE WORD NAZER IN 74:36 REFER TO THE HELL FIRE OR TO THE DEVINE EVIDENCES?
NAZER is an adjective derived from the root NZR and means "WARNER" Throughout the Quran the various derivatives of this word occur 130 times. Here are the verse numbers where the form NaZeR (warner) occurs 44 times: 2:119; 5:19; 5:19; 7:184; 7:188; 11:2; 11:12; 11:25; 15:89; 17:105; 25:1; 25:7; 25:51; 25:56; 26:115; 28:46; 29:50; 32:3; 33:45; 34:28; 34:34; 34:44; 34:46; 35:23; 35:24; 35:24; 35:37; 35:42; 35:42; 38:70; 41:4; 43:23; 46:9; 48:8; 51:50; 51:51; 53:56; 67:8; 67:9; 67:17; 67:26; 71:2; 74:36.
In NONE of these verses the word NaZeR is used for HELL or FIRE. In these verses NaZeR describe God's messengers, books, revelation, and signs.
THEN WHY THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BE MUSLIMS DO NOT UNDERSTAND OR APPRECIATE THE PROPHETIC FULFILLMENT OF THESE AYAAT (REVELATIONS/SIGNS/MIRACLES)? WHY THEY SEE AND WORK HARD TO SEE HELL-FIRE, INSTEAD OF THE PRECISE AND UNIVERSAL GREAT MIRACLE?
Surely, previous generations who were not aware the discovery of Code 19 via computer had an excuse to twist the meaning of obvious verses in order to make sense out of them. They could not imagine that the 19 was the code of an elaborate mathematical system. Nevertheless, some early commentators of the Quran who did not limit the understanding of the Quran with Hadith and Sunnah sensed something beyond HELL from these verses and discussed them as alternative understanding. For instance, Fakhruddin er-Razi in his famous Tafsir al Kabir, in his 23rd comment on Basmalah, speculates on the 19 letters of Basmalah and lists numerous implications, such as the difference between the number of 5 prayers and the number of hours in a day; the number of physical, intellectual, and emotional faculties that humans are blessed with, etc. Among the modern commentators who lived before 1974, Muhammad Asad is the only one that subscribes to Razi's interpretation of the number nineteen of 74:30. (See FOOTNOTE 4). However, Asad too could not avoid but see Hell everywhere.
The opponents of the miracle 19 are no different than those who rejected the entire Quran in the past. The description of these verses fits both groups, which is another miraculous aspect of the Quran:
74:21 He looked.
74:22 He frowned and scowled.
74:23 Then he turned away arrogantly.
74:24 He said, "This is but an impressive illusion/magic!" (See FOOTNOTE 5)
74:25 "This is human made."
In conclusion, those who reject to witness the miracle 19 are insulting the wisdom of God. According to them God's only answer to someone who challenges the authenticity of the Quran is: "Get lost! I will burn you in the hellfire" Depicting God as someone who cannot engage in an intellectual argument with His opponent, but can only employ the cheapest method of persuasion (threat) cannot be the path of believers who are warned by the incredible prophecies of this wonderful chapter, The Secret.
Turning back to the question: Then why those who claim to be Muslims do not understand or appreciate the prophetic fulfillment of these ayaat (revelations/signs/miracles)? Why they see and work hard to see hell-fire, instead of the precise and universal great miracle?
The Quran provides prophetic answers to this question in numerous verses. Please read and reflect on them:
"A.L.M. Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe," without being tested? We have tested those before them, for God must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars." (29:1-4)
"Their example is like those who start a fire, then, as it begins to shed light its surrounding, God takes away their light, leaving them in darkness, unable to see. Deaf, dumb, and blind; they will not return." (2:17-18)
"I will divert from My revelations/signs/miracles (ayaat) those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of sign/miracle (ayat) they will not believe in. When they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path. Yet, when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our revelations/signs/miracles (ayaat) and of being heedless thereof." (7:146) (See, FOOTNOTE 6)
"They challenge you to bring the retribution, when Hell is already surrounding the unappreciative/disbelievers." (29:54) (Please read from 29:48)
"He sent down to you this scripture, containing straightforward verses- which constitute the essence of the scripture-as well as multiple-meaning or allegorical verses. Those who harbor doubts in their hearts will pursue the multiple-meaning verses to create confusion, and to extricate a certain meaning. None knows the true meaning thereof except GOD and those well founded in knowledge. They say, "We believe in this-all of it comes from our Lord." Only those who possess intelligence will take heed." (3:7) (See FOOTNOTE 7)
"When reminded of their Lord's revelations/signs/miracles, they never react to them as if they were deaf and blind." (25:73)
"Are they waiting for angels to come to them, or your Lord, or some manifestation/miracles of your Lord? The day some of the manifestation/miracles of your Lord come, no person will benefit from believing if he or she did not believe before that, and did not reap the benefits of belief by leading a righteous life. Say, 'Keep on waiting; we too will wait." (6:158).
"Some of them listen to you. But we place veils on their hearts to prevent them from understanding, and deafness in their ears. Thus, no matter what kind of sign/miracle they see, they cannot believe. Thus, when they argue with you, the unappreciative disbelievers will say, "These are tales from past." (6:25-26)
"When they arrive, He will say, "You have rejected My revelations/signs/miracles before acquiring knowledge about them. Is this not what you did?" (27:84).
"They never expected an accounting/calculation. And they passionately rejected our revelations/miracles. Although we have counted everything in a record/book." (78:27-29).
"They cannot take heed against God's will. He is the source of righteousness; He is the source of forgiveness." (74:56).
Alhamdulillah.
NEXT: EXPOSING THE EXCUSES OF HYPOCRITES AND UNAPPRECIATIVE PEOPLE.
FOOTNOTES:
1. To see the examples of misunderstanding and distortion of Quranic verses by the followers of Hadith and Sunnah, please read the comparative section in the beginning of the Reformist Translation of the Quran.
2. Soon after Muhammad's death thousands of hadiths (words attributed to Muhammad) were fabricated and two centuries later compiled in the so-called "authentic" hadith books, to support the teaching of a particular sect against another (for instance, what nullifies ablution; which sea food is prohibited); to flatter or justify the authority and practice of a particular king against dissidents (such as, Mahdy and Dajjal); to promote the interest of a particular tribe or family (such as, favoring Quraysh tribe or Muhammad's family); to justify sexual abuse and misogyny (such as, Aisha's age; barring women from leading Salat prayers); to justify violence, oppression and tyranny (such as, torturing members of Urayna and Uqayla tribes, massacring Jewish population in Madina, assassinating a female poet for her critical poems); to exhort more rituals and righteousness (such as, nawafil prayers); to validate superstitions (such as, magic; worshiping the black stone near Kaba); to prohibit certain things and actions (such as, prohibiting drawing animal and human figures, playing musical instruments, chess); to import Jewish and Christian beliefs and practices (such as, circumcision, head scarf, hermitism, using rosary); to resurrect pre-islamic beliefs and practices common among Meccans (such as, intercession; slavery; ); to please crowds with stories (such as the story of Mirage and bargaining for prayers); to idolize Muhammad and claim his superiority to other messengers (such as, numerous miracles, including splitting the moon); to defend hadith fabrication against monotheists (such as, condemning those who find the Quran alone sufficient); and even to advertise a particular fruit or vegetables (such as, the benefits of date grown in Ajwa farm). In addition to the abovementioned reasons, many hadiths were fabricated to explain the meaning of the "difficult" Quranic words or phrases, or to distort the meaning of verses that contradicted to fabricated hadiths, or to provide trivial information not mentioned in the Quran (such as, Saqar, 2:187; 8:35)
3. For an article titled "Eternal Hell and Merciful God" visit www.yuksel.org OR www.19.org.
4. After translating the verse 74:30 as "Over it are nineteen (powers)" Muhammad Asad explains his parenthetical comment with the following footnote:
Whereas most of the classical commentators are of the opinion that the "nineteen"' are the angels that act as keepers or guardians of hell, Razi advances the view that we may have here a reference to the physical, intellectual and emotional powers within man himself: powers which raise man potentially far above any other creature, but which, if used wrongly, bring about a deterioration of his whole personality and, hence, intense suffering in the life to come. According to Razi, the philosophers (arbab al-hikmah) identify these powers or faculties with, firstly, the seven organic functions of the animal - and therefore also human - body (gravitation, cohesion, repulsion of noxious foreign matter, absorption of beneficent external matter, assimilation of nutrients, growth, and reproduction); secondly, the five "external" or physical senses (sight, hearing, touch, smell and taste); thirdly, the five "internal" or intellectual senses., defined by Ibn Sina - on whom Razi apparently relies - as (1) perception of isolated sense-images, (2) conscious apperception of ideas, (3) memory of sense-images, (4) memory of conscious apperceptions, and (5) the ability to correlate sense-images and higher apperceptions; and, lastly, the emotions of desire or aversion (resp. fear or anger), which have their roots in both the "external" and "internal" sense-categories - thus bringing the total of the powers and faculties which preside over man's spiritual fate to nineteen. In their aggregate, it is these powers that confer upon man the ability to think conceptually, and place him, in this respect, even above the angels (cf. 2:30 ff. and the corresponding notes; see also the following note).
5. Magic is not considered an extraordinary, paranormal event by the Quran. Its influence on people is described by its two aspects: illusion and suggestion/bluffs/hypnosis (7:103-120). Magic is an art of influencing gullible people via illusion and hypnosis (7:11; 20:66; 2:102). So, when the unappreciative disbeliever describes the Quran OR the mathematical miracle of the Quran as "influencing magic," what should be understood is that it is just a manipulation and hyperbole.
6. The plural word AYAAT means revelation, sign, evidence, or miracle. However, its singular form AYAT is mentioned in the Quran 84 times and in all its occurrences it means sings, evidence or miracles, not literary revelation of the Quran.
7. This verse is a crucial verse in understanding the Quran and ironically this very verse is one of the most commonly misunderstood verses in the Quran. For a detailed argument on this verse please visit: www.yuksel.org or www.19.org.
- Sun 06 May, 2007 12:52 pm
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Hello All
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BAHGAT: First of all, the first words in sura 74 are not "The Hidden one", the first words are " يَا أَيُّهَا الْمُدَّثِّرُ", "Ya Ayuha Al Muddathir", i.e. "O Al Madathir", i.e. "A call to Al Maddthir", and if we translate "Al Maddathir" to be "The Hidden" then it should be "O the hidden" , a proper translation should look like this :" O thou enveloped in thy cloak", i.e. it is a call to a human not to an object if we consider code 19 an object which of course is not, nor it is a human, therefore "O Al Madathir" must mean a call to a human, this human must be either Mohammad or R K, do you agree brother Edip?
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www19org wrote:
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Yes, literally you are right, and it does not reduce anything from the importance of the number 19 and its role in the structure of the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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However, your knowledge of the language of the Quran is unfortunately polluted by dogmas.
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www19org wrote:
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Perhaps I will never be able to convey you other layers of its meaning. For instance, a person who is not familiar with the Quran might find it bizarre that it tells us that God "talked" to the Earth and Skies and asked them to "submit to His will." According to literarily challenged people, it just does not make sense to personify earth and skies.
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BAHGAT: Actually brother Edip, you don't need a computer to count letters in words, I see your statement as an exadoration because the computer didn't discover anything, it was only used to count letters, while on the other hand it can be accurately counted using a human, it will just take longer, that's all.
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www19org wrote:
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Yes, there is no mystery in the computer. But, this does not change the fact that none counted the frequencies of initial letters in the beginning of 29 chapters before Rashad Khalifa.
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www19org wrote:
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For 14 centuries, numerous scholars wrote commentaries of the Quran, and millions of Muslims read them; they all had questions about the meaning of those letters; yet NONE could think of simply counting them.
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www19org wrote:
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Don't you find it bizarre this lack of curiosity, the inability to think of such a simple and potential connection?
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www19org wrote:
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Whether there is a mathematical pattern in the frequencies of the initial letters or not, in retrospect, it seems that it should have been a very obvious reaction to wonder their frequencies in the chapters they initialized.
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www19org wrote:
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Of course, the computer makes the counting much easier.
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www19org wrote:
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I know it because, while I was in Turkish prisons for my political activities and writings, I had the chance to employ about thirty of my comrade inmates to count the "initial letters" manually. I know how a daunting task it is,
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BAHGAT: The depth in the Arabic language is in its words, sentences, blaghah, i.e. its linguistics, it has nothing to do with numbers really. I can't see any relation other than this funny concept call ABGAD HAWAS, this ABGAD HAWAS thingy is only used in songs for children in Egypt.
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www19org wrote:
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YUKSEL: This shows your level of research, which apparently is not beyond kindergarten years in Egypt.
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www19org wrote:
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I will not crass your ego my dear friend. If you had taken a bit your time to educate yourself about the history of numbers and numeral systems, you would laugh at your remark regarding Abgad, Hawas' But, again, I cannot educate you on so many issues in a few hours of writing. You should have studied the subject before you engage in public debate on the very subject.
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www19org wrote:
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Besides, I had in the past discussed this issue with people like you and my debate is available at Internet. For instance, see my debates titled Running Like Zebras with Lomax, and Another Running Like Zebras with Ayman. I cannot spend my time again and again to discuss rudimentary historical and archeological facts that are accepted by experts in the field of mathematics. Assuming that you are sincere in your "funny" remark, I recommend you visiting a nearby library and reading Chapter 19 of George Ifrah's book, Universal History of Numbers. If you cannot find that book, you may find dozens of books on the subject. Well, what about me quoting for you the footnote for verse 2:1 in the upcoming book, Quran: a Reformist Translation?
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www19org wrote:
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A1L30M40. The meaning of 14 different combinations of alphabet letters/numbers initializing 29 chapters of the Quran remained a secret for centuries until 1974.
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www19org wrote:
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Many scholars attempted to understand the meaning of these initial letters with no results.
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www19org wrote:
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A computerized study that started in 1969 revealed in 1974 a 19-based mathematical design that was prophesied in Chapter 74.
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www19org wrote:
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The frequency of the 14 alphabet letters in 14 different combinations that initialize 29 chapters are an integral part of this mathematical structure.
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www19org wrote:
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Arabs, during the time of revelation, did not use what we now know as Arabic Numerals. A notable book, The Universal History of Numbers by George Ifrah, dedicates Chapters 17-19 to ancient numerical systems, titled: Letters and Numbers, The Invention of Alphabetic Numerals and Other Alphabetic Number-Systems. The book provides extensive information on the Hebrew, Armenian, Phoenician, Greek, Syriac, Arabic, and Ethiopian Alphabetic Numerals. According to historical evidence, during the era of Muhammad, Arabs were using their alphabet as their numbering system. The Arabic alphabet then was arranged differently and was named after its first four letters, ABJaD. Each of the 28 letters of the alphabet corresponded to a different number starting from 1 to 9, from 10 to 90, and then from 100 to 1000. When Arabs started adopting Hindu numerals in 760 AC, long after the revelation of the Quran, they abandoned their alphabet/numeral system in favor of a pedagogically arranged alphabet, which is currently in use. Below is the list of the 28 Arabic letters/numbers. When they are put next to each other, their numerical values are added to each other to attain a total number. For instance, the numerical value of ALLaH (God) is 1+30+30+5=66, of ShaHYD (Witness) is 300+5+10+4=319, and of WaHiD (One) is 6+8+4=19.
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www19org wrote:
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Thus, the Quran is not only a literary book, but also a book made of numbers.
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www19org wrote:
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The numerical structure of the Quran has two features: intertwined patterns among the physical frequency of its literary units, such as letters, words, phrases, verses, and chapters AND intertwined patterns among the numerical values (ABJaD) of these literary units. Considering the relevancy of the common meaning of words and letters during the time of revelation, we cannot ignore the fact that the combination of letters that initialize 29 chapters are primarily numbers. After Arabs commonly adopted the Indian numerals in the 9th century, unfortunately, the numerical system prevalent during the revelation became an antique abused by charlatan psychics, and astrologists. It is ironic that an innovation (today's Arabic numerals) replaced the original (ABJaD), but through the passage of time people started considering the original to be the innovation! The allergy of Muslim scholars to ABJaD and its use in the Quran, does not allow them to open their eyes to marvels of the numerically structured book (83:7-21).
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www19org wrote:
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To verify and witness the mathematical system of the Quran, one does not need to know Arabic,
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www19org wrote:
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though the knowledge of Arabic might increase the magnitude of its appreciation. Though there are hundreds of examples of the 19-based mathematical system, there are surely many still out there yet to be discovered. Meanwhile, there are also some issues that need to be resolved; for instance, the count of the letter Alif still remains to be settled. We know the mathematical structure of the Quran verifies both the extraordinary nature of the text and its miraculous preservation from tampering. However, the system still involves the entire Quran and we have yet to discover a miraculous system verifying the divinity and authenticity of each chapter, independently.
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www19org wrote:
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Observers reacting to this prophetic feature fall into three main groups: 1) unappreciative skeptics or fanatic religionists who reject its existence without sufficient investigation;
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www19org wrote:
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2) appreciative seekers of truth who witness it and experience a paradigm change;
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www19org wrote:
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and 3) gullible people who are impressed by it without fully appreciating the statistical facts and consequently indulge in "discovering" their own "miracles" through arbitrary numerical manipulations and jugglery. Ironically, the third group's exaggerated claims serve as justification for the first group's beliefs. For more information on this issue, please visit, 19.org.
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BAHGAT: Let's look at 17:88. "Say: If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran, they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others."
قُل لَّئِنِ اجْتَمَعَتِ الإِنسُ وَالْجِنُّ عَلَى أَن يَأْتُواْ بِمِثْلِ هَذَا الْقُرْآنِ لاَ يَأْتُونَ بِمِثْلِهِ وَلَوْ كَانَ بَعْضُهُمْ لِبَعْضٍ ظَهِيرًا (8
I can't see any relation between the alleged code 19 and the fulfilment of the Quran challenge in 17:88 for the following reasons:
1) What you say means that the Ins and Jinn thought that they made a similar Quran in all these years before R K announced to the public his code, however we know that even in those years no Ins nor Jinn made a similar book like the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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Can you let us know what you mean by "similar"?
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www19org wrote:
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There are many great works of literature written by Arabs,
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www19org wrote:
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and some are claimed to be even better than the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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Besides, what about non-Arabic works of literature?
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www19org wrote:
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Many people find the repetition in the Quran boring
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www19org wrote:
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or description of hell in the Quran lacking taste.
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www19org wrote:
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If you cannot define the meaning of your standard, that is "similar", then you have no standard.
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www19org wrote:
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You will reject every other book as not being similar for arbitrary reasons.
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www19org wrote:
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You will reject every book that is a bit similar to have been plagiarized from the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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So, you lack an OBJECTIVE definition of the challenge of the Quran.
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www19org wrote:
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Besides, even if you prove victory for now, you cannot guarantee that tomorrow someone would not accomplish the challenge.
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www19org wrote:
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You should consider this: The Quran is not really challenging anyone; it is a rhetorical challenge.
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www19org wrote:
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The Quran is declaring its unique nature;
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www19org wrote:
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which is "kitabun marqum", numerically coded book.
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www19org wrote:
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Based on our knowledge of its mathematically coded literal nature, and our knowledge regarding limits of human mind and skills, yes, based on these to parameters we should be able to reach to the conclusion: it is impossible for humans to produce a second book like the Quran.
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BAHGAT: 2) There is no future fulfilment to any challenge, it is rather you meet the challenge or not, i.e. any challenge is already fulfilled as a challenge the moment it was announced and in the case of the Quran challenge this challenge was fulfilled the day 17:88 was revealed, this means you statement above is logically wrong, the challenge can be proven a lie if being met.
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www19org wrote:
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These are empty words, brother Ahmed. In order to literarily claim victory of the Quran, you must do the following things: (1) define the meaning of "similar" or provide objective rules for a literary comparison;
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www19org wrote:
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(2) compare the Quran according to those objective rules with all the books claimed to be similar;
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(3) do this until the end of the world, since a "similar" book might be produced in the future.
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www19org wrote:
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If you could reflect a bit on your inherited claims, you would learn that according to your "literary miracle" the divine nature of the Quran could never be proven,
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www19org wrote:
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since it will be open to falsification until the end of the world. However, a prophetic and extraordinary mathematical structure may be able to declare or prove the victory instantly.
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BAHGAT: 3) It is not like we need to analyse an alleged Quran like book using code 19 to prove if it is alike or not because in all those years before code 19 was announced they didn't have this tool to analyse the alleged Quran like books and yet we know that the challenge was never met in all those years.
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www19org wrote:
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You do not "know" this. All you are doing is repeating the claims of Muslim scholar.
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www19org wrote:
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How do you know that the challenge was never met literarily?
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www19org wrote:
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How many literary books written after the Quran have you compared it to?
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www19org wrote:
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Perhaps, you will copy and paste here the silly and fake stories such as "al filu mal filu? Wa ma adraka mal filu?" Since you are rejecting one of the greatest signs and claiming to have a better sign instead, then shouldn't you provide us with some samples of your so-called literary comparisons? I demand it, since I provided you with many examples of the mathematical challenge. But, you are rejecting it without providing a single example or evidence.
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www19org wrote:
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So, I am going to post my answer your criticism, which was has been published at www.yuksel.org for a decade. I am quoting it from point 12:
12. As far as 9.128129. . . From 1974 (when the miraculous function of number 19 of chapter 74 was discovered), until 1985 (when the two false verses were exposed), for eleven years, no one knew that Rashad's computer data was one short regarding the frequency of the word God. Both the proponents and opponents of the miracle did not notice this crucial error for more than a decade. Why? Because, the most popular and accurate index of the Quran, Al-Mujamul Mufahras Lielfazil Quranil Kariym, had the same count 2698, when you add the one missing. (The index accepts the Fatiha's Basmalah as the first verse of the Quran, but fails to mention it in the list of the word "Allah")
If I had noticed the error in the beginning, I would, most likely, never have had the courage, or interest in studying the mathematical structure of the Quran. I would have refuted it outright and labeled it as a blasphemy of numerology. The miracle of the Quran would have been stillborn in the first days of its discovery. No one would have considered it worthy of examination. Even Rashad himself, then a traditional Muslim, most likely would not have accepted it under those circumstances. We strongly believe that God Almighty deliberately delayed this important problem for a simple reason: to publicize the miracle of the Quran, and give the Muslim world a chance and time to study it. After everyone got a good idea what 19 was all about, God let us discover the error. Everyone was put to the test: either follow the testimony of the Quran, or the testimony of your parents and the majority of people. Those who strengthened their faith according to the prophecy of 74.31 chose the testimony and signs of God, those who followed their parents and peers rejected the testimony and signs of God.
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www19org wrote:
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This process, I believe, was a fulfillment of 6.158 and 3.179.
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www19org wrote:
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13. Please note the emphasize on "We" in verse 15.9: "We, indeed We, yes We have revealed the Zikr (reminder), and We will preserve it." I don't remember such an emphasis anywhere else in the Quran. The short verse refers to God Almighty four times in regard of preserving His book.
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www19org wrote:
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To me, the message is obvious: it is not you (people) who will preserve the Zikr, it is God who will preserve it.
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www19org wrote:
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Please note, the relation between the revelation and preservation in the verse.
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www19org wrote:
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What is more appropriate than looking for a relation between the revelation and its protection?
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www19org wrote:
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Is it possible that the revelation contains an automatic protection?
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www19org wrote:
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How does God preserve the Zikr?
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www19org wrote:
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Obviously, with its own revelation. How do we know, or what is the proof?
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EDIP: Can you let us know what you mean by "similar"?
AHMED: Sure, Similar ? means the least FROM A GOD ?
EDIP: There are many great works of literature written by Arabs,
AHMED: Are these works from A GOD?
EDIP: and some are claimed to be even better than the Quran.
AHMED: Hmmm, it can 'ąt be because these books are not from A GOD, you can 'ąt compare apples with mangos, I call this on www.faithfreedom.org web site The Tutty Fruity fallacy ?
EDIP: Besides, what about non-Arabic works of literature?
AHMED: Are they from A GOD?
EDIP: Many people find the repetition in the Quran boring
AHMED: I didn 'ąt
EDIP: or description of hell in the Quran lacking taste.
AHMED: The description of Hell in the Quran is the best ever, I love it, no one can warn others with hell in such beauty but Allah, did you see the Jahannam Movie?
EDIP: If you cannot define the meaning of your standard, that is "similar", then you have no standard.
AHMED: I did defined the min requirement of the word similar and what I defined comply with the Quran because there is no other God but Allah, therefore no one will be able to come up with a book from another god, i.e. the challenge will never be met and that is what the Quran predicted exactly.
EDIP: You will reject every other book as not being similar for arbitrary reasons.
AHMED: When the min requirement is met i.e. a book from a god the least ? then I will honestly look into it seriously, and check other requirements.
EDIP: You will reject every book that is a bit similar to have been plagiarized from the Quran.
AHMED: As I said, when you bring a book from a god as well bring that god to give witness if you are truthful then I will look seriously into the matter, but I know you will fail to do so 100% because there is no other gods but Allah.
EDIP: So, you lack an OBJECTIVE definition of the challenge of the Quran.
AHMED: Sounds like you are the one who lacks it really, I know many so called Muslims understand the challenge incorrectly. Al hamdullelah I'm not one of them.
See, we can NOT compare a book by Shakespeare and a book by Allah because Allah is a God and Shakespeare is a human, makes sense to you?
EDIP: Besides, even if you prove victory for now, you cannot guarantee that tomorrow someone would not accomplish the challenge.
AHMED: This is a challenge that I know that it will never be met, this is what the Quran said not my wishful thinking ? and when I thought about it logically then it is true that the challenge will never be met because the word similar book means the least a book from another god so we can compare the two and see which book is better.
EDIP: You should consider this: The Quran is not really challenging anyone; it is a rhetorical challenge.
AHMED: Of course it is not the Quran that is challenging, it is the Author of the Quran Who is the Challenger
EDIP: The Quran is declaring its unique nature;
AHMED: Of course, its unique natire that it is the direct words of Allah, don 'ąt you agree?
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- Wed 09 May, 2007 11:04 pm
Post subject:
Hello all
Because brother Edip has withdrawn from this debate, I'm going to lock the thread and inshallah will continue later on to refute what he claimed, he took the chance to say what he wanted but he can't stand to give me a chance to say what I want so he withdrawn before I finish my refute, however my refute is going to be finihsed now with no disturbance
Salam
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