Junkmaster wrote:
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Just how many Muslims do you think could read back then and which was more prevalent the oral Koran or the written Koran?
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Junkmaster wrote:
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Perhaps at first when the Arabs were moving from an oral model to a written model their first attempt wasn't perfect and didn't need to be since most Muslims then would memorize the Koran instead of relying on a book to do it for them.
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Junkmaster wrote:
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Even today, 1400 years later,The Muslim populations have a very low percentage of basic literacy and even smaller for Arabic,
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Junkmaster wrote:
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I can't image it being any more than 1% of the population back then so an easily readable Koran wasn't a necessity
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Junkmaster wrote:
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and probably had more to do with idolatry than accurate transmission of information.
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Junkmaster wrote:
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People like to be able to hold things in their hands even if they can't read them or understand them because it gives them a false sense of power.
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Junkmaster wrote:
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Didn't early Muslims even use pages of the Koran for magic spells?
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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Junky
I will only reply to your last paragraph, the rest is crap as you know
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Junkmaster wrote:
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What exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know why you believe some deity would create deaf people or let his followers create them through bombings and then command them to LISTEN to the Koran?
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Junkmaster wrote:
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What exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know if you have ever considered the possibility that you belong to a cult which uses classic brainwashing techniques such as repetitive verbal conditioning?
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Junkmaster wrote:
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What exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know if you can see the absurdity in claiming the Oral Koran is the only true Koran but that it can't be properly transmitted without the written Koran and expect us to believe that it was transmitted correctly for the many years it didn't exist in written form?
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Junkmaster wrote:
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And the most important dodge of all, what exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know if YOU interact with YOUR written Koran in any extraordinary manner?
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Junkmaster wrote:
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If anything, your beliefs are crap because you can't defend them or explain them.
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Junkmaster wrote:
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I don't think you correctly understand the word "dismiss" because the only context that would make your use of the word make sense would also contradict its use. Perhaps you should just ignore things you are unable to explain or use a more appropriate term such as "no comment."
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Junkmaster wrote:
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The written Koran has been used for much more than just magical healing spells, I was just using that as one example. I think you must be ignorant to its alleged magical properties as claimed by Muslims in the past and present.
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Junkmaster wrote:
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In your above explanation about healing humans, what purpose or part does the written Koran play?
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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it is all about Allah you ignorant kafir bound to hell, it is not about the Quran, however the Quran is the main tool that He used to communicate to us and we should use it back to communicate to Him
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Junkmaster wrote:
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Your above attempt at an appeal to force just goes to show what a contradictory and cruel belief system you allow yourself to believe in. It isn't my fault that you aren't able to properly explain your cult beliefs,
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Junkmaster wrote:
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nor is it my fault that your alleged deity choose such an archaic and imprecise language that leads to arguments rather than wisdom.
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Junkmaster wrote:
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You haven't even proved that the Koran is from Allah
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Junkmaster wrote:
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or that Allah even exists,
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Junkmaster wrote:
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so to claim it is the main tool used to communicate with muslims is laughable.
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Junkmaster wrote:
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I would agree that it was Muhammad's main tool to manipulate his followers.
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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whatever you are going to say next will be dismissed, i don't have time to watse with a jerk like ya :*)
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Junkmaster wrote:
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Fine by me, here is what I was going to say next
"there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"
dismissed
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Junkmaster wrote:
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Oh yeah, that's right. You aren't even a real Muslim. Practically a kafir yourself, don't some sunni muslim groups have a few fatwas on your type?
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Well, there is no fatwa yet, but I'm sure it is coming, well, do you think I'm a coward who will fear a bunch of enemies of Allah?
Think not, I will fight those confused Muslims who want to hijack the religion of Allah (to serve their low desires) till the last breath i have
Also junky, there is no sects in Islam, let me educate you and educate your fellow confused sunni Muslims:
We know well that Islam nowdays has numerous sects as well new sects are being invented every now and then, the problem though that those who are dividing the religion into sects are violating Allah orders big times, let's have a look
The following verse clearly warns the believers from dividing their religion:
Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty,-
[The Quran ; 3:105]
وَلاَ تَكُونُواْ كَالَّذِينَ تَفَرَّقُواْ وَاخْتَلَفُواْ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَأُوْلَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (105)
[The Quran ; 3:105]
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, but if they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t listen and surely many of the so called believers didn't in the form of sectarian Islam as we all know, then this is what they will get from Allah ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? For them is a dreadful penalty????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see A DREADFUL PENALY, i.e. those whom you meet and claim to be following a special Islamic sect MUST BE PUNISHED by Allah according to 3:105 and the punishment is going to be dreadful.
The Quran is even clearer showing us that those who divide their religion are not really the true followers of Mohammad:
Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.
[The Quran ; 6:159]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُواْ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُواْ يَفْعَلُونَ (159)
[The Quran ; 6:159]
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُواْ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. Mohammad has nothing to do with them, i.e. they are not following him, they are only following what they invented and every sect is rejoicing with that they invented for themselves, this fact is clearly stated in another location:
30- Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
31- Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists
32- Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them
[The Quran ; 30:30-32]
فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا فِطْرَةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (30)
مُنِيبِينَ إِلَيْهِ وَاتَّقُوهُ وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَلَا تَكُونُوا مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (31)
مِنَ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا كُلُّ حِزْبٍ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُونَ (32)
-> Here is the order to only hold the religion of Allah :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, this upright religion was sent to us from Allah in the Quran, it is not the BS human made and called it sects nor any teaching that implies any division in the religion like the 4 Mazhabs for example, I was astonished to find many westerners who reverted to Islam that they boast about which Mazhab they follow, i.e. from day one of their Islam they are mislead by some confused scholars who already been divided for years and years
-> This up right religion of Allah is nothing more than :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and that????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s indeed what Islam is in very short words
-> And here the fact that we see it today between the sunni, shia and other sects of rejoicing with what they invented for themselves while rejecting what the other sects invented for themselves, :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, indeed this statement is valid to all Islam sects who divided their upright religion into numerous sects, and we know well that they are not following Mohammad as 6:159 told us and we also know that they will have a dreadful penalty as 3:105 told us.
Indeed turning any religion into sects is a clear cut contradiction within the followers of all these sects because a true religion sent by the one God is all about uniting humanity under His convenant and this is exactly what Allah told us:
And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦
[The Quran ; 3:103]
وَاعْتَصِمُواْ بِحَبْلِ اللّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلاَ تَفَرَّقُواْ ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦. (103)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? but that is not what all Islamic sects do as we all know
Therefore, those secterian Muslims are screwed in the head and possibly killing each other is one of the punishments Allah made them do, so they may wake up before one hell of a dreadful day when they will know that they were not following the prophet nor the prophet has anything to do with their inventiions, therefore they must earn a dreadful penalty
What else I can say?, one thing left to say, I just said above "possibly killing each other is one of the punishments Allah made them do", that is exactly what He told us as well in His Quran:
Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet, or that He should throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties; and make some of you taste the fighting of others. See how We detail the signs that they may understand.
[The Quran ; 6:65]
قُلْ هُوَ الْقَادِرُ عَلَى أَن يَبْعَثَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَذَابًا مِّن فَوْقِكُمْ أَوْ مِن تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِكُمْ أَوْ يَلْبِسَكُمْ شِيَعاً وَيُذِيقَ بَعْضَكُم بَأْسَ بَعْضٍ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُصَرِّفُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَفْقَهُونَ (65)
-> The verse is telling Mohammad to tell us: "Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet", Allah also has the power to :"throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties (divided), and make some of you taste the fighting of others.", I always say the word "SEE" when there is a compeling Quran argument, I learnt it from the Quran actually, this is what we SEE today between the Sunni and Shia sects for example and Allah is telling us if we can SEE it :"See how We detail the signs that they may understand.", Obvioulsy the CONFUSED Sunnis and Shias sects deserved this curse from Allah because they violated the unity of this religion by inventing sects and each one of them is rejoicing with what they invented while rejecting the other sect
Salam
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