Always_Faithful wrote:
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You see this is the type of argument you should be using to prove your point.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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A direct reference, and not a non sequitur. I hope you now realise why your earlier post was fallacious.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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However, this is the word I am interested with: خَلَقَهُ. I want you to really think about this word. It says that Alah formed (this is a more appropriate word) Adam from dust, then said "be" and he was. Adam was not a human being with a soul before Allah gave him life, he was merely formed from dust - and you know very well that Islam teaches that a human soul is not created from dust, but that it is given to a body, and that a human is not complete until he has it. This is very similar to the Biblical story.
There is nothing anachronistic about the verse if you look at it the correct way, especially when you take into account its immediate parallel with the Book of Genesis.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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So much for the Slam Dunk.
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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Hello
I know what arguments I use in my discussions, thanks
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I hope you realise that you lack the language high level knowledge to understand my first argument regarding the words Min Baad, see, you are just an average Arabic speaker, nothing more really, there is more into Arabic than just speaking and reading it
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The corrupt Bible has nothing to so with this argument,
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on the other hand I'm not going to ping pong you with your refutes, I will only leave it to the public to make their opinion but I will keep hammering you with one verse after another (and I have got plenty), here is another Thumma that should mean MOREOVER
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And most surely I am most Forgiving to him who repents and believes and does good, MOREOVER was guided.
[The Quran ; 20:82]
وَإِنِّي لَغَفَّارٌ لِّمَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا ثُمَّ اهْتَدَى (82)
-> See the first event who repents and believes and does good, that is enough to conclude that this person is guided, now the second event that came after Thumma is اهْتَدَى , i.e. Guided, therefore the word Thumma MUST MEAN MOREOEVER
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I hope you realise that you lack the language high level knowledge to understand my first argument regarding the words Min Baad, see, you are just an average Arabic speaker, nothing more really, there is more into Arabic than just speaking and reading it
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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That's your opinion, dear Ahmed. I could say the same about you, but then again it would just be conjecture.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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If by an average Arab speaker you're comparing me to the likes of professional translators, then average must be bloody good.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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I understood your first argument perfectly, which is why I called it irrelevant. You didn't seemed to differentiate between semantics and grammar.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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As by the example I gave, the two terms are different parts the of syntax.
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The corrupt Bible has nothing to so with this argument,
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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Did I say it did? I gave you a linguistic explaination of the verse, the point about the Bible was just to show you the parallel.
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on the other hand I'm not going to ping pong you with your refutes, I will only leave it to the public to make their opinion but I will keep hammering you with one verse after another (and I have got plenty), here is another Thumma that should mean MOREOVER
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And most surely I am most Forgiving to him who repents and believes and does good, MOREOVER was guided.
[The Quran ; 20:82]
وَإِنِّي لَغَفَّارٌ لِّمَن تَابَ وَآمَنَ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا ثُمَّ اهْتَدَى (82)
-> See the first event who repents and believes and does good, that is enough to conclude that this person is guided, now the second event that came after Thumma is اهْتَدَى , i.e. Guided, therefore the word Thumma MUST MEAN MOREOEVER
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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My must it? If you do good and repent, then you can be on the right path. If you are already guided, then it is taken for granted that you're doing those things, so moreover doesn't work.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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In fact, "moreover" means that the verse would be pleonastic (i.e. redundant).
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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Once again, you appear to be disagreeing with all the major translators,
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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simply because you are assuming that someone who does those things are on the right path.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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You need to be continuously doing so to be on the right path,
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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so being fully guided (towards slavation) comes later.
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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Look, I hope you don't get upset, I call a spade a spade, however I know you can say the same but you didn't, in fact what you said a few days back regarding my Arabic knowledge is the opposite to what you are implying that you may say.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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a translator does not have to know Arabic well, however it will be a bonus if they do have high level of Arabic liguistics, I doubt that most tranlsators have that option, in fact I doubt that most of them were native Arabic speakers from the first palce, they made luaghable mistakes, everyone of them
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It is not semantic nor grammar, it is just words making context, do you understand that?
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you mentioned parallel thing with the bible, now does the bible have the word Thumma in it?
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excuse me the verbs in the verse are all past tense, it seems you totally overlooked this fact
who REPENTED, BELIEVED AND DID good deeds MOREOVER was GUIDED
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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In fact, "moreover" means that the verse would be pleonastic (i.e. redundant).
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haha
Dismissed
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Of course, do you think I'm dmb as many of you are to follow some idiots who only did it for popularity?
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hopefully in a few years you will receive my translation copy free
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oh please, don't give me silly argument because I demolished another joker you had,
Repent + Believe + Do Good Deeds = Guided
no one can bloody deny that, do you want further quran evidences?
the word continuesly does not appear in the verse, why you are injecting new words to the translation?
this is not honestly man
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now let;s look at another slam dunk, the translation is by Yusuf Ali btw:
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Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
[The Quran ; 5:75]
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ (75)
-> See what Yususf Ali used for Thumma, YET, this is because THEN can not be valid, the verse is talking about Mary and her son, Allah is saying See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them, now the second event after Thumma does not mean it was after that event of explaining His signs, rather something that seen all the times that is why Y A used YET, yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
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That must be another slam dunk hey
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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Look, I hope you don't get upset, I call a spade a spade, however I know you can say the same but you didn't, in fact what you said a few days back regarding my Arabic knowledge is the opposite to what you are implying that you may say.
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Always_Faithful wrote:
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You're not calling a spade a spade at all. You're making assumptions.
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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Sure, I've said that I respect your Arabic in the past, but I'm very free to change my mind on that.
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AhmeBahgat wrote:
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a translator does not have to know Arabic well, however it will be a bonus if they do have high level of Arabic linguistics, I doubt that most translators have that option, in fact I doubt that most of them were native Arabic speakers from the first place, they made laughable mistakes, everyone of them
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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Pickthal is notoriously capable at Arabic.
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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If you had read my post, you'd see that the mention of the Bible was just to show that, in Islam and Christianity, the idea that a human is given a soul after creation is the same (before the ru7 is given to them). Stop dwelling on such a side-point; I clearly refuted the argument without it.
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excuse me the verbs in the verse are all past tense, it seems you totally overlooked this fact
who REPENTED, BELIEVED AND DID good deeds MOREOVER was GUIDED
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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So? What does tense have to with this? It still makes: Who repented and believed and did good deeds and then was guided.
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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oncept of being on the right path is that you have done good, prayed, etc; therefore it is redundant to say that they are on the right path as well as being good. If you claimed that it meant "therefore", you'd have a point. Otherwise, you're wrong.
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Of course, do you think I'm dumb as many of you are to follow some idiots who only did it for popularity?
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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They very often disagree with each-other, so it's irrational of an Arab-speaker to follow any of them. I just find it strange that you're willing to disagree with all of them based on an assumption. If you had anything compelling, I'd have to value your translation more.
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oh please, don't give me silly argument because I demolished another joker you had,
Repent + Believe + Do Good Deeds = Guided
no one can bloody deny that, do you want further quran evidences?
the word continuously does not appear in the verse, why you are injecting new words to the translation?
this is not honestly man
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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So you're saying that doing a good deed once (or temporarily) is enough to be on the right path? Be rational, mate.
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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As a vague example, the Qur'an says that you should establish prayer three times a day, not simply as a one-off. That implies that you need to sustain the pious lifestyle to be on the right path.
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Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
[The Quran ; 5:75]
مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ (75)
-> See what Yususf Ali used for Thumma, YET, this is because THEN can not be valid, the verse is talking about Mary and her son, Allah is saying See how Allah doth make His signs clear to them, now the second event after Thumma does not mean it was after that event of explaining His signs, rather something that seen all the times that is why Y A used YET, yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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Firstly, I thought you didn't look at translations?
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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Secondly, the word used is "yet", not moreover. "Yet" here does not negate either "moreover" nor "then". It is pragmatic.
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That must be another slam dunk hey
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Always_Faithfu wrote:
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It's actually the worst one so far, as it helps me prove you wrong.
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Dominus wrote:
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I find it strange that Ahmed would resort to Yusuf Ali, supposedly the weakest of the translators.
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I resort to anyone even the kafirs as long as they say the right thing
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