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Quran Translation Feedback and Comments - Sura 2 - Comments and Feedback
- Fri 28 Sep, 2007 2:40 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter 2 - Al-Baqara ( The Cow )
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Al-Baqara (The Cow)

Introduction

To be edited......


Very good, Ahmed.

What are you going to edit? The translation? Do you think we should add commentary to the translation?

Salaams
BMZ
- Fri 28 Sep, 2007 2:48 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter 2 - Al-Baqara ( The Cow )
BMZ wrote:
Very good, Ahmed.
What are you going to edit? The translation? Do you think we should add commentary to the translation?
Salaams
BMZ



Salam brother

I want to give a summary for every Sura, sort of what it will be talking about in brief, exactly as Sura 1

You can help bro if you desire and I won't say no of course Very Happy

Commentary is a must and again if you can help, it will be great, I say if you can do the History related commentary, it will be great, I will do the commenatry regarding the tough word meaning and

Cheers and many thanks
- Sat 29 Sep, 2007 4:44 am
Post subject: Re:
Salam brother AB good job last week i thinking whats happening to the Al Quran project Alhamdullillaah its still on.
Let me know what can i do for you broteher.
- Sat 29 Sep, 2007 2:56 pm
Post subject: Re:
SlaveofAllaah wrote:
Salam brother AB good job last week i thinking whats happening to the Al Quran project Alhamdullillaah its still on.
Let me know what can i do for you broteher.


Thanks brother

I'm planning to do 20 verses eveyday inshaallah, it will take me at least 300 days, any help you can do brother will be appreciated, commentaries, history record etc etc

take care
- Sat 29 Sep, 2007 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re:
Insha Allaah i will try to get the best of sources, and try to put in the history. Insha Allaah.
- Mon 08 Oct, 2007 9:56 am
Post subject:
Salam dost log!

Heres a link to Syed Abul-Ala' Maududi about historical background. I read few lines and am full of questions about it, its confusing to me! anyway have a look http://www.islam101.com/quran/maududi/index.htm
- Mon 08 Oct, 2007 1:47 pm
Post subject:
Rigel wrote:
Salam dost log!

Heres a link to Syed Abul-Ala' Maududi about historical background. I read few lines and am full of questions about it, its confusing to me! anyway have a look http://www.islam101.com/quran/maududi/index.htm


Greetings, Dost

Please feel free to put a few questions at a reasonable pace. Smile

BMZ
- Tue 16 Oct, 2007 8:34 pm
Post subject:
Salam All,

Finally I have finished the first check of sura 2 translation, the translation took 15 days and the check took 3 days, this resulted in a change of my plan

I won?????????????????????¢??t prepare all the tough issues in another comment for each sura, it just takes a lot of time and I can?????????????????????¢??t afford to mock around while I have the rest of the Quran to finish inshaallah

The sura will stay draft for a year and during that time I will welcome any feedback

A couple of issues that I still have to check in sura 2

1) the words order
2) the verbs tense

as you might have noticed that in many verses FI translation is totally different to the common ones, I will use the following verse as an example:

وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِين آمَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ كُلَّمَا رُزِقُواْ مِنْهَا مِن ثَمَرَةٍ رِّزْقاً قَالُواْ هَذَا الَّذِي رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَأُتُواْ بِهِ مُتَشَابِهاً وَلَهُمْ فِيهَا أَزْوَاجٌ مُّطَهَّرَةٌ وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ (25)

25- And give glad tidings to those who believed and did good deeds, that they shall have gardens where rivers flow beneath it, whenever they are given from it a plant produce as a subsistence, they said: This is what was provided to us before; and they were given the like of it, and for them in it pure partners, and they shall in it abide.
[Al Quran ; 2:25]


-> What I would like to discuss with you is the underlined sentence which is repeated in the Quran numerous times, the sentence is as follow:

وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, it talks about the status of the Jannah dwellers that they shall abide in it, see how I just wrote it they shall Abide in it?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, however in Arabic, it was not said like that, rather they shall in it abide, normally in Arabic you say it the same way in English ie, Hum Khalidoon Fiha, but in the Quran it is always said as seen above Hum Fiha Khlidoon, this is a very high Balagha indeed, because saying in such way must take the attention of the one who is hearing it because it is not said the common and certainly human way, Allah used such Balagha intensively, I believe that is one of the reasons most Arabic speakers were impressed by the language of the Quran, therefore I believe FI translation must reflect such beauty in the language and be translated the way I proposed above, I still believe it is not 100% accurate because the sentence is giving us an adjective for those in the jannah, the adjective which should be the noun of Abide, let me suggest the word Everlasting (not sure if fits) as a proposal to make it 100% accurate, ie it may be as follow:

وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????

I suppose there should be a comma after the word it, ie. ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it, everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????

The following translations are the most 3 common ones, please compare with FI ones:

YUSUFALI: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

PICKTHAL: And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.

SHAKIR: And convey good news to those who believe and do good deeds, that they shall have gardens in which rivers flow; whenever they shall be given a portion of the fruit thereof, they shall say: This is what was given to us before; and they shall be given the like of it, and they shall have pure mates in them, and in them, they shall abide.


Please let me know what do you think because if it makes sense to most of you then I will fix the translation but yet I?????????????????????¢??m keeping the Quran style of the words order as much as I can, I believe in very rare verses I won?????????????????????¢??t be able to keep the word order, but to my surprise I found that most can be translated in the exact word order and yet make sense but most importantly it will reflect the exact words in Arabic and its unhuman beauty.

For the verbs, I found that FI translation should reflect the tense of each verb, I already started doing so but yet to check all verbs in sura 2

I will keep adding my thoughts in individual comments as it come to my mind while doing the rest of the Quran, I will start translating sura 3 soon inshaallah

Take care all
- Mon 22 Oct, 2007 7:31 pm
Post subject:
Salam All,

Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do

Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do

I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:

Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do

However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.

Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.

Salam
- Tue 23 Oct, 2007 5:02 am
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,

Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do

Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do

I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:

Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do

However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.

Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.

Salam


Salaams, Ahmed

Your earlier approach is perfectly correct. In fact that is closer to the real meanings.

How about "And it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do." Unaware is close to Gahfil.

BMZ
- Tue 23 Oct, 2007 6:49 am
Post subject:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,

Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do

Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do

I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:

Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do

However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.

Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.

Salam


Salaams, Ahmed

Your earlier approach is perfectly correct. In fact that is closer to the real meanings.

How about "And it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do." Unaware is close to Gahfil.

BMZ


Thanks dear brother what you say makes sense and I decided to use your propsed translation, sounds cool to me

cheers
- Tue 23 Oct, 2007 8:08 am
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,

Finally I have finished the first check of sura 2 translation, the translation took 15 days and the check took 3 days, this resulted in a change of my plan

I won?????????????????????¢??t prepare all the tough issues in another comment for each sura, it just takes a lot of time and I can?????????????????????¢??t afford to mock around while I have the rest of the Quran to finish inshaallah

The sura will stay draft for a year and during that time I will welcome any feedback

A couple of issues that I still have to check in sura 2

1) the words order
2) the verbs tense

as you might have noticed that in many verses FI translation is totally different to the common ones, I will use the following verse as an example:

وَبَشِّرِ الَّذِين آمَنُواْ وَعَمِلُواْ الصَّالِحَاتِ أَنَّ لَهُمْ جَنَّاتٍ تَجْرِي مِن تَحْتِهَا الأَنْهَارُ كُلَّمَا رُزِقُواْ مِنْهَا مِن ثَمَرَةٍ رِّزْقاً قَالُواْ هَذَا الَّذِي رُزِقْنَا مِن قَبْلُ وَأُتُواْ بِهِ مُتَشَابِهاً وَلَهُمْ فِيهَا أَزْوَاجٌ مُّطَهَّرَةٌ وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ (25)

25- And give glad tidings to those who believed and did good deeds, that they shall have gardens where rivers flow beneath it, whenever they are given from it a plant produce as a subsistence, they said: This is what was provided to us before; and they were given the like of it, and for them in it pure partners, and they shall in it abide.
[Al Quran ; 2:25]


-> What I would like to discuss with you is the underlined sentence which is repeated in the Quran numerous times, the sentence is as follow:

وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, it talks about the status of the Jannah dwellers that they shall abide in it, see how I just wrote it they shall Abide in it?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, however in Arabic, it was not said like that, rather they shall in it abide, normally in Arabic you say it the same way in English ie, Hum Khalidoon Fiha, but in the Quran it is always said as seen above Hum Fiha Khlidoon, this is a very high Balagha indeed, because saying in such way must take the attention of the one who is hearing it because it is not said the common and certainly human way, Allah used such Balagha intensively, I believe that is one of the reasons most Arabic speakers were impressed by the language of the Quran, therefore I believe FI translation must reflect such beauty in the language and be translated the way I proposed above, I still believe it is not 100% accurate because the sentence is giving us an adjective for those in the jannah, the adjective which should be the noun of Abide, let me suggest the word Everlasting (not sure if fits) as a proposal to make it 100% accurate, ie it may be as follow:

وَهُمْ فِيهَا خَالِدُونَ, Wa Hum Fiha Khalidoon, ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????

I suppose there should be a comma after the word it, ie. ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????They are in it, everlasting.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????

The following translations are the most 3 common ones, please compare with FI ones:

YUSUFALI: But give glad tidings to those who believe and work righteousness, that their portion is Gardens, beneath which rivers flow. Every time they are fed with fruits therefrom, they say: "Why, this is what we were fed with before," for they are given things in similitude; and they have therein companions pure (and holy); and they abide therein (for ever).

PICKTHAL: And give glad tidings (O Muhammad) unto those who believe and do good works; that theirs are Gardens underneath which rivers flow; as often as they are regaled with food of the fruit thereof, they say: this is what was given us aforetime; and it is given to them in resemblance. There for them are pure companions; there for ever they abide.

SHAKIR: And convey good news to those who believe and do good deeds, that they shall have gardens in which rivers flow; whenever they shall be given a portion of the fruit thereof, they shall say: This is what was given to us before; and they shall be given the like of it, and they shall have pure mates in them, and in them, they shall abide.


Please let me know what do you think because if it makes sense to most of you then I will fix the translation but yet I?????????????????????¢??m keeping the Quran style of the words order as much as I can, I believe in very rare verses I won?????????????????????¢??t be able to keep the word order, but to my surprise I found that most can be translated in the exact word order and yet make sense but most importantly it will reflect the exact words in Arabic and its unhuman beauty.

For the verbs, I found that FI translation should reflect the tense of each verb, I already started doing so but yet to check all verbs in sura 2

I will keep adding my thoughts in individual comments as it come to my mind while doing the rest of the Quran, I will start translating sura 3 soon inshaallah

Take care all


Ahmed,

I will add my thoughts on this later.

Salaams
BMZ
- Tue 23 Oct, 2007 8:11 am
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
BMZ wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam All,

Hope everyone had a great Ramadan, I just started translating sura 3, however I can?????????????????????¢??t stop thinking about how to make the translation of sura 2 more accurate therefore I will discuss with you today one of the issues I faced, it is these words وما الله بغافل عما تعملون , Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what you do

Some times it is said as follow: Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Yaamaloon, literally it means And Allah is not ignorant of what they do

I hesitated to use the word ignorant in a sentence that Allah is mentioned in it, I tried to use something like not aware but I found it really hard to deny the denial, like this Allah is not -not aware-, it sounded very odd to me, so I came up with this:

Wa Ma Allah Bi Ghafil Amma Taamaloon, Not literally it means And it is not fit that Allah is not aware of what you do

However after having a triple thought, I believe I should stick to the literal which is And Allah is not ignorant of what you do, what made me change my mind that He was the One who used the word Ghafil, therefore I have to translate it literally.

Before I change it in the 4 locations in sura 2 I would like to hear any feedback or suggestions from any one.

Salam


Salaams, Ahmed

Your earlier approach is perfectly correct. In fact that is closer to the real meanings.

How about "And it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do." Unaware is close to Gahfil.

BMZ


Thanks dear brother what you say makes sense and I decided to use your propsed translation, sounds cool to me

cheers


Now you know why I mentioned the word "nightmare" (not in a bad sense but rather in toughness of the mission) for translators? Very Happy

Thanks & Cheers
BMZ
- Sat 27 Oct, 2007 1:32 am
Post subject:
Salam bro BMZ and all,

Sorry for the late reply mate, got busy with my work that was accumulated on me while translating sura 2, 20 verses a day, I actually can't do that with the rest of the Quran, I was a bit over optimistic, what I will do is some how distribute my time between what I have to do and of course translating the Quran is a high priority between?????????????????????¢??s

anyway, here is another tough issue that I faced in sura 2, I will appreciate your feedback because as you proved already to us that your feedback is a great help, btw after finishing all the tough issues then we will edit sura 2 to what we all agreed on

the next one may be simple however it stumped me for a long time man,

in the Quran we have two common words that were used numerous times, the two words are so common that they are even used in public language by the Arabs

the first word is احسان, Ihsaan, the word is actually simple t translate, I believe it means Kindness

however most of the times another word appears with the above word

the second word is معروف, Maroof, this is actually a tough word to translate, for the first glance I thought it means Kindness, but that has to be wrong because in many verses both appear together describing two things that are opposite,

Let's look at the following verse for example:

الطَّلاَقُ مَرَّتَانِ فَإِمْسَاكٌ بِمَعْرُوفٍ أَوْ تَسْرِيحٌ بِإِحْسَانٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَأْخُذُواْ مِمَّا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ شَيْئًا إِلاَّ أَن يَخَافَا أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِمَا فِيمَا افْتَدَتْ بِهِ تِلْكَ حُدُودُ اللّهِ فَلاَ تَعْتَدُوهَا وَمَن يَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (229)

The divorce is (allowed) twice, then keeping (the wives) lawfully or let (the wives) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any thing of what you have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has sacrificed with; these are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust.
[Al Quran ; 2:229]

-> the above verse is talking about divorce, and it tells the men to either keep their wives with Maaroof or let them go with Ihasan

as you can see, Maaroof was used to describe keeping the wives and Ihsaan was used to describe letting them go

you can also see that I translated the word Ihasan to kindness, however for the word Maaroof, I translated it to lawfully

my problem is with the word Maaroof ads I stated earlier, the word is so common in Arabic and it can may mean two things:

1) is known
2) a favour

in fact the word I'iml Maroof is very common in the day to day life of the Arabs, it means Do a favour

the main meaning of word is is known this is coming from the verb Arafa which is to know, however Maaroof is on the wazn of Maafool, i.e. it means: is Known

that is why it is (interchangeably) used with the meaning Favour because a favour is something that is certainly KNOWN between the parties involved, sort of because it is known then the one who had the favour done to him knows that he has to pay it back one day without being reminded, sort of a common LAW that is KNOWN, in fact in the very primitive areas in the middle east in many countries the communities have their own law and it is called Aruf, i.e. it became law by commonly known, i.e. common law.

that is why I translated it to Lawfully, i.e. when we keep the wives then we should keep them not to abuse them rather keep them LAWFULLY, and the law here is the Quran

In other locations btw, it can't be lawfully, and that is why I'm stumped

What do you think bro?

Cheers
- Sat 27 Oct, 2007 3:57 am
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam bro BMZ and all,

Sorry for the late reply mate, got busy with my work that was accumulated on me while translating sura 2, 20 verses a day, I actually can't do that with the rest of the Quran, I was a bit over optimistic, what I will do is some how distribute my time between what I have to do and of course translating the Quran is a high priority between?????????????????????¢??s

anyway, here is another tough issue that I faced in sura 2, I will appreciate your feedback because as you proved already to us that your feedback is a great help, btw after finishing all the tough issues then we will edit sura 2 to what we all agreed on

the next one may be simple however it stumped me for a long time man,

in the Quran we have two common words that were used numerous times, the two words are so common that they are even used in public language by the Arabs

the first word is احسان, Ihsaan, the word is actually simple t translate, I believe it means Kindness

however most of the times another word appears with the above word

the second word is معروف, Maroof, this is actually a tough word to translate, for the first glance I thought it means Kindness, but that has to be wrong because in many verses both appear together describing two things that are opposite,

Let's look at the following verse for example:

الطَّلاَقُ مَرَّتَانِ فَإِمْسَاكٌ بِمَعْرُوفٍ أَوْ تَسْرِيحٌ بِإِحْسَانٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَأْخُذُواْ مِمَّا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ شَيْئًا إِلاَّ أَن يَخَافَا أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِمَا فِيمَا افْتَدَتْ بِهِ تِلْكَ حُدُودُ اللّهِ فَلاَ تَعْتَدُوهَا وَمَن يَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (229)

The divorce is (allowed) twice, then keeping (the wives) lawfully or let (the wives) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any thing of what you have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has sacrifised herself; these are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust.
[Al Quran ; 2:229]

-> the above verse is talking about divorce, and it tells the men to either keep their wives with Maaroof or let them go with Ihasan

as you can see, Maaroof was used to describe keeping the wives and Ihsaan was used to describe letting them go

you can also see that I translated the word Ihasan to kindness, however for the word Maaroof, I translated it to lawfully

my problem is with the word Maaroof ads I stated earlier, the word is so common in Arabic and it can may mean two things:

1) is known
2) a favour

in fact the word I'iml Maroof is very common in the day to day life of the Arabs, it means Do a favour

the main meaning of word is is known this is coming from the verb Arafa which is to know, however Maaroof is on the wazn of Maafool, i.e. it means: is Known

that is why it is (interchangeably) used with the meaning Favour because a favour is something that is certainly KNOWN between the parties involved, sort of because it is known then the one who had the favour done to him knows that he has to pay it back one day without being reminded, sort of a common LAW that is KNOWN, in fact in the very primitive areas in the middle east in many countries the communities have their own law and it is called Aruf, i.e. it became law by commonly known, i.e. common law.

that is why I translated it to Lawfully, i.e. when we keep the wives then we should keep them not to abuse them rather keep them LAWFULLY, and the law here is the Quran

In other locations btw, it can't be lawfully, and that is why I'm stumped

What do you think bro?

Cheers


Salaams, Ahmed

Thanks for your kind words. I will try my best to explain the difference between the usage of the words Ihsaan and Ma'aroof in the verses. But before we do that, all of us should keep in mind that the language of Qur'aan is the language which was spoken by the tribes of Mecca and Quraish.

There are many people still living in the vicinity of Mecca and they are coming directly from the generations of people from the prophet's time. Many scholars have gone and lived among them just for the sake of the knowledge of Meccan Arabic, it's idioms, proverbs, satire, figuratives, etc,

If all of us try to translate and understand Qur'aan on the basis of our knowledge of modern Arabic, we will encounter difficulty in explaining, as the meanings, in English, will not be the same and it would be very hard to find the right words in English. I was also stumped for a long time, you are not alone, bro. Smile

I don't have any Arabic software or keyboard, so please allow me to explain verse by verse:

"At-talaaqo mar-rataan". Most scholars translate this verse as "Divorce is permitted twice."

This means a divorce can be revoked twice. This comes as a warning that there should be no more divorce after two pronounced and that would be the last chance to save a marriage. After the third divorce is announced, it is all gone and the marriage ends.

Now we come to "Fa-imsaa-kum bema'arufin au tasreehum be-ahsaan.", which simply means,"So hold it together fairly or part nicely."

In other words, if you want to stick together, hold it together in all mutual fairness or part in a good manner.

I have thus made slight changes in your translation and hope you agree with it.

"The divorce is (allowed) twice. They should hold together in all fairness or part nicely; and it is not lawful for you (men) to take any thing of what you (men) have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you (the judges) fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has given up to free herself. These are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust.
[Al Quran ; 2:229]

You must have noted that the words on their own have varying meanings but in the usage of Qur'aan's Arabic, the meanings are not exactly what they are in modern Arabic.

Does this help, bro? Please advise. You gave me a very tough assignment but I am glad you gave me the chance of earning some sawaab. JazakAllah. Good Night. Had a very tiring day but this was more important.

Verses like "wa ahsinoo" meaning "and do good" and "Wa Ahsin kamaa ahasanallaho ilaika" meaning "And do good like Allah has done good for you" are clearly talking about "doing good" or "being good".

In Surah Luqmaan, "ya bunaiyya aqimis-salaata wamur bil-ma'arufay wanha anil munkaray" clearly shows the usage of the words in their own meanings, which are "O my son, establish prayers regularly, enjoin what is just and forbid what is wrong." Now the word Ma'aroof here means just, right and good. Mukar can be unjust, wrong and evil. You see bro, how tough is the choice of the words?


BMZ
- Sat 27 Oct, 2007 2:08 pm
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam bro BMZ and all,

Sorry for the late reply mate, got busy with my work that was accumulated on me while translating sura 2, 20 verses a day, I actually can't do that with the rest of the Quran, I was a bit over optimistic, what I will do is some how distribute my time between what I have to do and of course translating the Quran is a high priority between?????????????????????¢??s

anyway, here is another tough issue that I faced in sura 2, I will appreciate your feedback because as you proved already to us that your feedback is a great help, btw after finishing all the tough issues then we will edit sura 2 to what we all agreed on

the next one may be simple however it stumped me for a long time man,

in the Quran we have two common words that were used numerous times, the two words are so common that they are even used in public language by the Arabs

the first word is احسان, Ihsaan, the word is actually simple t translate, I believe it means Kindness

however most of the times another word appears with the above word

the second word is معروف, Maroof, this is actually a tough word to translate, for the first glance I thought it means Kindness, but that has to be wrong because in many verses both appear together describing two things that are opposite,

Let's look at the following verse for example:

الطَّلاَقُ مَرَّتَانِ فَإِمْسَاكٌ بِمَعْرُوفٍ أَوْ تَسْرِيحٌ بِإِحْسَانٍ وَلاَ يَحِلُّ لَكُمْ أَن تَأْخُذُواْ مِمَّا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ شَيْئًا إِلاَّ أَن يَخَافَا أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ أَلاَّ يُقِيمَا حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَلاَ جُنَاحَ عَلَيْهِمَا فِيمَا افْتَدَتْ بِهِ تِلْكَ حُدُودُ اللّهِ فَلاَ تَعْتَدُوهَا وَمَن يَتَعَدَّ حُدُودَ اللّهِ فَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ (229)

The divorce is (allowed) twice, then keeping (the wives) lawfully or let (the wives) go with kindness; and it is not lawful for you to take any thing of what you have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has sacrifised herself; these are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust.
[Al Quran ; 2:229]

-> the above verse is talking about divorce, and it tells the men to either keep their wives with Maaroof or let them go with Ihasan

as you can see, Maaroof was used to describe keeping the wives and Ihsaan was used to describe letting them go

you can also see that I translated the word Ihasan to kindness, however for the word Maaroof, I translated it to lawfully

my problem is with the word Maaroof ads I stated earlier, the word is so common in Arabic and it can may mean two things:

1) is known
2) a favour

in fact the word I'iml Maroof is very common in the day to day life of the Arabs, it means Do a favour

the main meaning of word is is known this is coming from the verb Arafa which is to know, however Maaroof is on the wazn of Maafool, i.e. it means: is Known

that is why it is (interchangeably) used with the meaning Favour because a favour is something that is certainly KNOWN between the parties involved, sort of because it is known then the one who had the favour done to him knows that he has to pay it back one day without being reminded, sort of a common LAW that is KNOWN, in fact in the very primitive areas in the middle east in many countries the communities have their own law and it is called Aruf, i.e. it became law by commonly known, i.e. common law.

that is why I translated it to Lawfully, i.e. when we keep the wives then we should keep them not to abuse them rather keep them LAWFULLY, and the law here is the Quran

In other locations btw, it can't be lawfully, and that is why I'm stumped

What do you think bro?

Cheers


BMZ wrote:
Salaams, Ahmed


Salam Brother


BMZ wrote:
Thanks for your kind words. I will try my best to explain the difference between the usage of the words Ihsaan and Ma'aroof in the verses.


No worries mate, I'm really delighted that you are a member on FI, so we learn from your knowledge


BMZ wrote:
But before we do that, all of us should keep in mind that the language of Qur'aan is the language which was spoken by the tribes of Mecca and Quraish.


Of course, we are only trying to help those non Arabic speakers with the will of Allah.


BMZ wrote:
There are many people still living in the vicinity of Mecca and they are coming directly from the generations of people from the prophet's time. Many scholars have gone and lived among them just for the sake of the knowledge of Meccan Arabic, it's idioms, proverbs, satire, figuratives, etc,


Sure, but that is not enough for us to follow what we heard about those schilars unless what they claim is undisputable and well supported by the Quran.

BMZ wrote:
If all of us try to translate and understand Qur'aan on the basis of our knowledge of modern Arabic,


Not really mate that I do that, for me the Arabic of the Quran is very well spotted through its linguestics and its balagha, I can know the modern Arabic from the Quran Arabic with ease, this is because I studied the Lugha Arabia Fusha at school "the Arabic of the Quran", for example the word Maaroof, I believe it is used in the Quran to mean, kindness, favour and known, I believe all three meaning appeared in three different locations, I will need to confirm that please, therefore what i based my thoughts on regarding Maaroof was the fact that i remember reading differnt meanings to it in the Quran, I thought that there might be a generic english word that accomadate alll meanings, but I;m happy to translate it according to its context in every location, I have no problem with that.

BMZ wrote:
we will encounter difficulty in explaining, as the meanings, in English, will not be the same and it would be very hard to find the right words in English. I was also stumped for a long time, you are not alone, bro. Smile


That was a bit of relief mate, I felt stupid for some time, Laughing

BMZ wrote:
I don't have any Arabic software or keyboard,


neither do I btw, Laughing , true

BMZ wrote:
so please allow me to explain verse by verse:

"At-talaaqo mar-rataan". Most scholars translate this verse as "Divorce is permitted twice."


true but as you know that the word permitted was not in the Arabic text, it is just logically understood.


BMZ wrote:
This means a divorce can be revoked twice. This comes as a warning that there should be no more divorce after two pronounced and that would be the last chance to save a marriage. After the third divorce is announced, it is all gone and the marriage ends.


Agreed

BMZ wrote:
Now we come to "Fa-imsaa-kum bema'arufin au tasreehum be-ahsaan.", which simply means,"So hold it together fairly or part nicely."


sounds good to me


BMZ wrote:
In other words, if you want to stick together, hold it together in all mutual fairness or part in a good manner.


great

BMZ wrote:
I have thus made slight changes in your translation and hope you agree with it.


Thank you, please do it when you feel it's needed

BMZ wrote:
"The divorce is (allowed) twice. They should hold together in all fairness or part nicely; and it is not lawful for you (men) to take any thing of what you (men) have given them (the wives), unless both fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah; so if you (the judges) fear that they can not establish the limits of Allah, then there should be no blame on them for what she has given up to free herself. These are the limits of Allah, therefore do not exceed it and whoever exceeds the limits of Allah, then these are the unjust.
[Al Quran ; 2:229]


Great, it sound perfect to me

BMZ wrote:
You must have noted that the words on their own have varying meanings but in the usage of Qur'aan's Arabic, the meanings are not exactly what they are in modern Arabic.


I agree, that is why the context is very important


BMZ wrote:
Does this help, bro? Please advise.



of course it did, and that is how I will translate it, however I may come back with the same two words in another two locations in sura 2 just in case I have a problem fitting fairly and nicely in there.

BMZ wrote:
You gave me a very tough assignment


I really enjoy it bro, I hope at least that you enjoy it.

BMZ wrote:
but I am glad you gave me the chance of earning some sawaab. JazakAllah. Good Night. Had a very tiring day but this was more important.


The thanks is for Allah for giving us such opportunity by sending such great book to us.


BMZ wrote:
Verses like "wa ahsinoo" meaning "and do good" and "Wa Ahsin kamaa ahasanallaho ilaika" meaning "And do good like Allah has done good for you" are clearly talking about "doing good" or "being good".


Agreed


BMZ wrote:
In Surah Luqmaan, "ya bunaiyya aqimis-salaata wamur bil-ma'arufay wanha anil munkaray" clearly shows the usage of the words in their own meanings, which are "O my son, establish prayers regularly, enjoin what is just and forbid what is wrong." Now the word Ma'aroof here means just, right and good. Mukar can be unjust, wrong and evil. You see bro, how tough is the choice of the words?

BMZ



can't agree more man, well, we can only do our best and leave the rest on Allah

take care bro and thanks for your help
- Sat 27 Oct, 2007 5:20 pm
Post subject:
You are welcome, Ahmed.

How I wish that all Islamic countries introduce the learning of Qur'aan as a subject from the primary to matriculation (Australian) and they can see amazing results.

The results that Allah, the Lord Almighty and prophet achieved within 23 years by educating a people who were the greatest disbelievers of God in the world.

The simple and clear message, in the language they spoke, was perfectly heard and understood by those folks and they accepted it. What a wonder that was! SubhaanAllah.

Salaams
BMZ
- Sun 28 Oct, 2007 12:10 pm
Post subject:
BMZ wrote:
You are welcome, Ahmed.


Cheers mate

BMZ wrote:

How I wish that all Islamic countries introduce the learning of Qur'aan as a subject from the primary to matriculation (Australian) and they can see amazing results.


great idea, however what they do now is make the kids memorise while they understand nothing in it

BMZ wrote:
The results that Allah, the Lord Almighty and prophet achieved within 23 years by educating a people who were the greatest disbelievers of God in the world.


Exactly

BMZ wrote:
The simple and clear message, in the language they spoke, was perfectly heard and understood by those folks and they accepted it. What a wonder that was! SubhaanAllah.
Salaams
BMZ


Indeed bro, it's amazing


BTW mate, I have done the changes in sura 2 regarding your feedback of and it is not that Allah is unaware of what you do, please check it out in sura 2, I think it appeared in 5 verses

Take care
- Tue 13 Nov, 2007 5:09 pm
Post subject:
Baal wrote:
Hey Ahmed, I am going over the translations from 2:1 to 2:20. So far, your translation seems more honest then the 3 buffoons who keep interpreting instead of translating.


Hello

I can only do my best while acceoting help from any

Baal wrote:
I would recommend you do not use any Comma. The koran does not use commas so you should steer clear from them.


I have to looke carefully into this recomendation, it makes a bit of sense to me however I will also consider replacing the commas with dots, I will seek further advice regarding this suggestion

Baal wrote:
In 2:2 should "Muttakeen" be pious?


Not bad at all, however can you suggest a word for the VERB Yattaqi?

Baal wrote:
In 2:3 should Ghayb be "Unknown" instead of "Unseen"?


I agree with you, I will consider this cjange in the next check through

Baal wrote:
In 2:4 "Unzila Ilayk" should be "Descended to you"? Descended is closer to the original text and gives more taste.


I disagree with this because the action of decending imlies that it descended by itself, however Onzila means that some one made to descende therefore I have to use the words "was sent down" better that was made to descend"

Baal wrote:
In 2:7. Your translation is accurate. But If the Arabic is not accurate. Nothing you can do about that I guess.
2:7 said: "their heartS .. their Hearing .. their VisionS"
Hearts and visions is plural and hearing is not.


Ok, I will look into that and fix accordingly


Baal wrote:
2:8: It refers to the "Last Day". In 2:4 you referred to the "Akhira" as the "Hereafter". Now in 2:8 you refer the "al yawm al akhar" as the "last day". Maybe pick a word-translation Standard and stick to it for the whole book. (maybe you already did, i only read 8 verses so far)


That is something I'm keen of doing which is whatever I use for a word must be the same all over the Quran, however with some words this is impossible, like the word Maaroof which means Lawfully in some verses and means Kindky in another and popssible means Known in another place.

regarding Al Akhirah and Al Yawm Al Akhar, they are not the same regarding the arabic words, and sure Al yam Al Akar is two words so the last day is most suited, Al Akhira is one word so the hearafter is suited unless you come up with a word to replace the hearafter that should mean Al Akhira, possibly the Last however using it as such may be vague under english.

Baal wrote:
2:9 I am having a problem with 2:9. How can we translate "Yukhade'oon" and "Yakhda'oon"? Do they both translate to the same English word? possible, I need to look more into this.


sure, let me know if you disciver anything that relates to 2:9

Baal wrote:
2:10 "so Allah increased them in their disease ", I would say "increased their disease in them". As it stands, your translation implies that "allah increased them"


I agree, I will change accordingly

Baal wrote:
Also in 2:10 :
"for them, there shall be a painful suffering because they were lying."
I would say:
"for them a painful suffering by what they were lying."


I agree again, I always prefer less words to refelect the arabic words. will change accordingly


Baal wrote:
2:13 "Sufaha" you translated to fool. Your translation is one of the possible meaning but you have to put other meanings in a footnote. ie: feeble-minded, shameless, impudent, etc..



I agree however I will concentrate on the footnotes, comments and the flash movies after I finish the whole Quran with at least one checkup inshaallah

Baal wrote:
I would also like to add that "Sufaha" is considered a dirty word, a word unfit for a book from god, but you have no hand in that ahmed.


In fact the word Safaha is Lugha Arabia Fusha and only those who use Arabic professional will use it.


Baal wrote:
2:14 "And When they meet" could be "And if they find"


Look mate, I'm going to copy this comment to Sura 2 comments and feedback thread and take it from there, I need to llok carefully into what you are suggesting and I will lose the thread if I leave it in here, I will contniue replying to it on my web site later tonight inshaallah, cheers

Baal wrote:

2:14 "Kaloo" sometimes you translate it to "They say" (2:13, 2:11) and sometimes to "They said". Pick one and stick to it as a Standard.
Also you are assigning 2 different tenses to "Lakou" and "Kaloo"
2:14 "We believed; but when" should be "We believed and if"
2:14 "We are with you, we were only mockers." should be "We are with you BUT we were only mockers."

2:15 There is Two errors:
1. Yamiddum implies he 'increases their action'.
2. and "unjust" should be 'unjustness' or something like that.

I recommend a verse that looks like this:
"Allah mocks them and extends (supplies, assists) them in their tyranny (to wander) blindly
2:15 You have to add a footnote to this verse to put more meanings for "yamidduhum".

I also recommend you pick a meaning for Tughyan (tyranny?) and stick to is as a Standard for the translation.

2:16 There is a tense problem here. I recommend a verse that looks like this:
"Those are the ones who bought the misguidance WITH the guidance so their trade brought no profit, nor were they guided. "

2:17 "lighted" must be "lit"
2:17 "Allah took away" could be "Allah went away"
2:17 There is a mistake in the Arabic verse: "Like a guy that lit a fire and Allah went away with THEIR fire and left THEM in the dark" Why is the koran saying THEY when he is talking about a single person lighting a fire. But this is an Arabic problem, not yours.
2:17 And the verse is horrible. It is the quintessential verse that describes Islam. People lit a light and allah took away their light and left them in the dark. Nothing you can do about that I guess.

2:20 "lighted" must be "lit" or "lights" (depends on which tense you pick)
2:20 "snatches" and 'lighted' and 'wished' are Two different tenses, so pick one.
2:20 "Wa Iza" should be "And If" not "And When". "Wa Hina" could mean "And When". Be precise and pick a Standard for your translation.
2:20 "And if Allah wished, He could" I recommend "And if Allah wished, he would". Allah can wish 'to want' to do something. Allah will not wish to 'be able' to do something.
ie: "If Allah wishes, he could fly." vs. "If Allah wishes he would fly".
2:20 Same problem in Arabic as in 2:7 : "Their VisionS and their Hearing". But nothing you can do about that.
2:20 "indeed Allah is able to do everything." it sounds weak in English. I recommend "indeed Allah is upon everything capable." or "Allah is capable upon everything" or use anything else that sounds stronger then the existing text.

Cheers, I will go through the rest as time goes.
- Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:08 pm
Post subject:
Quote:

2:17 There is a mistake in the Arabic verse: "Like a guy that lit a fire and Allah went away with THEIR fire and left THEM in the dark" Why is the koran saying THEY when he is talking about a single person lighting a fire. But this is an Arabic problem, not yours.


# that one has been on my mind for a long time; the shift from singular to plural!

...the way i understand it, the similitude of the disbelieving folk is not the one who lights a fire, but the people who, by reason of their wickedness, deprive themselves of the light that the fire throws around;

in chapter 17, v read:

Quote:

017.045 And when thou recitest the Qur'an we place between thee and those who
believe not in the Hereafter a hidden barrier;

017.046 And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in
their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'an,
they turn their backs in aversion.


...it is clear from the above verses that the guidance of the quran is withheld from those who have chosen to disbelieve, so that their hearing avails them not!

Quote:

2:17 And the verse is horrible. It is the quintessential verse that describes Islam. People lit a light and allah took away their light and left them in the dark. Nothing you can do about that I guess.


# it is not the desire of god to misguide them; it is their souls that incline them to disbelief!

...for the same reason, there is nothing horrible about the verse; every soul shall be requited what it strived for...and the decree of god ever is executed!
- Sun 23 Dec, 2007 11:13 pm
Post subject:
Quote:

2:17 There is a mistake in the Arabic verse: "Like a guy that lit a fire and Allah went away with THEIR fire and left THEM in the dark" Why is the koran saying THEY when he is talking about a single person lighting a fire. But this is an Arabic problem, not yours.


#...also, it does not say that god went away with their "fire"...the "fire" is still there, but it is its light which they have deprived themselves of!
- Tue 25 Dec, 2007 12:14 am
Post subject:
Thanks brother The

I was not aware that Baal of FFI was alleging that there is an error regarding 2:17, this is a common balagha in the Quran (shifting from plural to singualr), you will notice that there will always be a logical explanation to explain it and the whole purpose at the end of the day is to make the pronouociation of the words togther easier on the tongue

in here Allah is saying that their likeness (a group of them), is like one who lit a fire, i.e. one of them lit a fire, it is not like all the group will try to lit the fire at once, simply one will stand and do it alone, and that is to provide Noor (light) to the whole group with him, then Allah removes their light (the group of those confused believers)

makes great sense to me, in fact I tried to pronounce it using a plural form of the verb Isttawqad, and the devive Al Llazi , as follow:

"Mathalahum Kamathal Al Llazina Isttawqadu Nara....", it is too heavey on the tongue, i can assure you that, now this way it sound very easy and the context is still the same:

"Mathalahum Kamathal Al Llazi Isttawqada Nara...."

Remember one important fact about the Quran that was told to us many times in it, Allah made it easy on the tongue to be remembered with ease


Take care
- Tue 25 Dec, 2007 6:08 am
Post subject:
Quote:

ahmedbahgat wrote:
in here Allah is saying that their likeness (a group of them), is like one who lit a fire, i.e. one of them lit a fire, it is not like all the group will try to lit the fire at once, simply one will stand and do it alone, and that is to provide Noor (light) to the whole group with him, then Allah removes their light (the group of those confused believers)


# well...*that* was the first explanation i had offered to myself!

...however, i later reasoned that the one who lights the fire does not have to be from the party of the condemned ; i.e, the one who lights the fire need not be included in the similitude of the disbelieving folks, and for this reason i quoted 17:45!

...to put it (my current understanding) more plainly, the similitude of the disbelievers is the people who are not benefited from the light of the fire that some well-meaning person ignites!

## take care...salam! (-:
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