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# hey, bud...r u reading it as "aalameen" (e.g.: in 29:15) and translating it as "knowledgeable", or r u saying that the arabic text itself should read "aalimeen"?
## take care! (-:
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# cool...does it mean that wherever "aalameen" is used (save for where preceded by "rabb") it should be read as "aalimeen" (knowledgeable)?
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## also, could u shed some light on "knowledgeable"? what knowledge do they possess?
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apostasyrus wrote:
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Let me propose something, and I say this with recognition of the fact that I know little Arabic if any. What if the word was really meant to be Aalamain, and neither Aalameen nor Aalimeen. i.e. Aalamain sounding like Mashriqain or Maghribain as in Rab ul Mashriqain wal Maghribain?
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apostasyrus wrote:
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No sweat. I got perfectly well what you meant. Sorry I have been away a few days.
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apostasyrus wrote:
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I am reading your posts and evaluating what you put forward.
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apostasyrus wrote:
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However, in the first glance it appears (to me) to be a stretch.
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apostasyrus wrote:
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I'd think mercy would be more deserved by the ignorat than the knowledgeable ones,
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apostasyrus wrote:
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who by virtue of their knowledge and understanding, would be able to realize and practice what's needed for a less pessimistic afterlife than Islamic hell depicts. To use a crude analogy, one needs a Presidential or Royal pardon (act of mercy) to escape punishment for a crime one commited. A pardon would be out of place for a law-abiding citizen since there isn't a punishment to be waived.
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apostasyrus wrote:
Let me propose something, and I say this with recognition of the fact that I know little Arabic if any. What if the word was really meant to be Aalamain, and neither Aalameen nor Aalimeen. i.e. Aalamain sounding like Mashriqain or Maghribain as in Rab ul Mashriqain wal Maghribain?
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apostasyrus wrote:
Let me propose something, and I say this with recognition of the fact that I know little Arabic if any. What if the word was really meant to be Aalamain, and neither Aalameen nor Aalimeen. i.e. Aalamain sounding like Mashriqain or Maghribain as in Rab ul Mashriqain wal Maghribain?
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The wrote:
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# this is just another instance of "what if..."; misplaced diacriticals might throw the entire quran open to another message: interesting, perhaps...but definitely speculative!
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The wrote:
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further, v see that wherever the word "aalimeen" is imperative it has been used, e.g. 21:81 and 12:44! to then assume that in verses like 29:15 "aalameen" has been wrongly used in place of "aalimeen" is uncalled for,
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The wrote:
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especially when v can't even formulate an understanding of the "knowledge" that knowledgeable possess! and somehow this reminds me of the new understanding of mecca/becca and djinn that some non-muslims had proposed...no offence!
## take care...bud! (-:
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Sure, however on my side, I concede that only Allah knows the meaning, I only tried and concluded that it can have many meanings and in such case I will leave it to Allah, I on't chose which one that applies in many verses, however in some verses the word meaning has to be one meaning and that is what I will take for myself
ok, why then you convince me that accoring to the context it should mean the worlds and not the knowledgeable?
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Sure, however, you totally missed that many transltors translated the word as Knowlegeable, please check my long comment again,
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[The Quran ; 6:90]
أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ (90)
-> Again the verse above is about the message of the Quran which was the main role for the prophet to deliver and explain if required, the verse above is telling us that the Quran is a reminder to Al Aalimeen, إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ , In Hua Illa Zikra Lil Aalimeen, see how all three translated the word Aalimeen:
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and in this case I'm not oinventing anything new as those on FM, I'm using the Quran and my Arabic knowledge to try to find out the right meaning, and when I fail I will leavve it to Allah and concede that all those easy to understand verses and the hard ones are from Allah, accoridng to 3:7
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there is no question that it is a duty on every Muslim to ponder upon the Quran
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Sure, however on my side, I concede that only Allah knows the meaning, I only tried and concluded that it can have many meanings and in such case I will leave it to Allah, I on't chose which one that applies in many verses, however in some verses the word meaning has to be one meaning and that is what I will take for myself
ok, why then you convince me that accoring to the context it should mean the worlds and not the knowledgeable?
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# what all would agree on is that "knowledegable" is aalimeen!
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The wrote:
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aalameen, the plural of aalam,
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The wrote:
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is not the same as aalimeen; nor is "aalamain" the dual of aalim!
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The wrote:
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so, v have nothing to translate aalameen (and aalamain) as knowledgeable, esp given that the correct word for knowledgeable is aalimeen!
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Sure, however, you totally missed that many transltors translated the word as Knowlegeable, please check my long comment again,
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[The Quran ; 6:90]
أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ (90)
-> Again the verse above is about the message of the Quran which was the main role for the prophet to deliver and explain if required, the verse above is telling us that the Quran is a reminder to Al Aalimeen, إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ , In Hua Illa Zikra Lil Aalimeen, see how all three translated the word Aalimeen:
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The wrote:
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...and i couldn't find an instance (in ur post) where any of shakir, pickthall or ali has translated aalameen as knowledgeable!
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and in this case I'm not oinventing anything new as those on FM, I'm using the Quran and my Arabic knowledge to try to find out the right meaning, and when I fail I will leavve it to Allah and concede that all those easy to understand verses and the hard ones are from Allah, accoridng to 3:7
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The wrote:
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# 1 big concern here was reading aalameen as aalamain...
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there is no question that it is a duty on every Muslim to ponder upon the Quran
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The wrote:
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# true!
take care, bud...salam! (-:
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but it seems mate that you want to take a word that may mean three things as always one thing
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how about you reply to every verse in my comment?
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16:61 Walaw yu-akhithu Allahu alnnasa bithulmihim ma taraka AAalayha min dabbatin walakin yu-akhkhiruhum ila ajalin musamman fa-itha jaa ajaluhum la yasta/khiroona saAAatan wala yastaqdimoona
shakir: And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time).
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The wrote:
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nopes, u were there at freeminds wen v had objected to: aalameen being knowledgeable; to djinn carrying different connotations...just to give 2 instances! i didn't concern myself wid dis kind of speculation then, and i wont concern myself now!
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can you please elaborate?
who is (v), is it myself?
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also I'm not playing with any marks, the fact is clear the word has the same exact letters for the three meanings, and I have been always the same, if the mutiple meanings do not create a contradiction then I'm happy to consider all mutiple meanings as valid
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Excuse me mate, the above is dismissed, this is because you need to prove it by a link, I won't trust your memory, sorry
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# i had to re-visit freeminds to come up wid somethin to vindicate my memory! :-S
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The wrote:
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n u aint need 2 b sorry, bud!
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The wrote:
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nor do u need 2 trust my memory...
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The wrote:
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but dismissin my comment before givin me a chance to provide a link is a sad thing to do! perhaps ur own memory is not standing u in good stead here, bud...so here u go:
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The wrote:
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http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11914.105
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AhmedBahgat
Guest
Re: Verse 17:36 The New Idol???
�??????�?????�????�???�??�?�« Reply #105 on: May 12, 2006, 03:16:18 PM �??????�?????�????�???�??�?�»
Quote from: thegod on May 12, 2006, 09:41:24 AM
# it is not aalameen in those 2 verses...it is aalimeen!
EXACTLY bro
Thanks
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The wrote:
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...i had made a distinctin between the understanding of aalameen and aalimeen, and u have endorsed it! luckily, i found ur own words, else u wld have suffered cuz of not trustin my memory!
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also it seems you got it totally wrong, if you read my comment again, but slowly this time and without being on the objection side before hand and you should read that I said Rab Al Aalameen means the Lord of the worlds
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The wrote:
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# plz read again my second post in this thread...i clearly acknowledge that u have made an exception where aalameen is preceded by "rabb"...the only difference between what the member at freeminds said and what u are sayin is that he didnt make any exception; and i do appreciate his consistency!
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The wrote:
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in reply to my (second) post (here), u came up with a "very valid proposal" by a "kafir" at ffi...don't know how his rehashing the tashkil usage and coming up with aalamain contributed!
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I really don't know what you are going on about so far
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hmmm, it seems that you totally missed what I'm talking about, please read my long comment again
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The following example is very interesting, Allah is telling us about Himself, that He is knowledgeable and because Allah uses plural for Himself, instead of calling Himself �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Aalim�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?? which is singular, He called Himself Aalimeen
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The wrote:
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...and i wonder why u raised a point as moot as god using (plural) "aalimeen" for itself...surely, "haafizeen" is another example! so i don't know what was "very interesting" about god using aalimeen for itself!
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The wrote:
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# n i still don't c why u have chosen to translate aalameen as "knowledgeable" where u have, something which, at best, is speculation; whereas v know that the correct word for knowledgeable is aalimeen!
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The wrote:
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## anyway...i don't really fancy busyin myself wid "what if..." discussions...so this should be the end of it from my side! i look forward to ur translation of the fifth chapter!
### take care, bud! (-:
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may mean three things:
1) Worlds if pronounced "Aalameen"
2) Knowledgeable if pronounced "Aalimeen"
3) Two worlds if pronounced "Aalamain"
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[The Quran ; 30:22]
The last word in the above verse has to be "Aalimeen:, i.e. Knowledgeable
here is how the verse is recited by Sheikh Al Ghamdy, please listen to the last word carefully and he has to prnounce it Aalimeen, with a Kasirah under the Lam, you can even see the Kasirah in the arabic text above:
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may mean three things:
1) Worlds if pronounced "Aalameen"
2) Knowledgeable if pronounced "Aalimeen"
3) Two worlds if pronounced "Aalamain"
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[The Quran ; 30:22]
The last word in the above verse has to be "Aalimeen:, i.e. Knowledgeable
here is how the verse is recited by Sheikh Al Ghamdy, please listen to the last word carefully and he has to prnounce it Aalimeen, with a Kasirah under the Lam, you can even see the Kasirah in the arabic text above:
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The wrote:
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# if u listen to the same ghamdy reciting 29:15, u will hear him pronounce it "aalameen"...u can play it over as many times as u want, till it becomes clear to u! next, check the arabic text, u will even see the kasirah over laam in there!
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The wrote:
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# ergo, in 29:15 it should be read as "aalameen" and understood as worlds...goin by wat u urself write!
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The wrote:
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so unless u start playing with the tashkeel...a la "kafir"...u ve no justification for saying that in 29:15 the word should be read as "aalimeen"!
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The wrote:
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again, u provided arabic text and ghamdy's recitation as proofs of somethin,
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The wrote:
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so it would be behooving to accept ur own proofs and acknowledge that in 29:15 it is "worlds" and not "knowledgeable"! ofcourse, u dont need to!
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The wrote:
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## again...many non-muslims and wannabes attempt playin wid tashkil,
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The wrote:
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and i dont concern myself wid dem; nor am i goin to concern myself with u over this!
# take care, bud...salam! (-:
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Great, however you have refuted nothing
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The wrote:
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# in typical wannabe/hypocrite style u have resorted to refusing what u urself offer as proof,
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The wrote:
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and ve started talking abt logic which, funnily enuf, is the farthest thing away from ur mindless ramblings!
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The wrote:
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## the wannabes at freeminds make smarter arguments than u can...so i wldnt concern myself with lesser wannabes/hypocrites!
and unlike ur more intelligent counterparts u dont even merit a consideration...atleast come up with a semblance of logic if u expect a refutation! :-S
## take care, matey...salam! (-:
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Look sir, you really talk non sense and I had enough of your rants, you have failed to express what you want to say or refute, till this moment I really don't get what you want to say and I believe nor anyone who read this thread
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dismissed and I guess Ii have to dismiss the rest of your crap
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Look sir, you really talk non sense and I had enough of your rants, you have failed to express what you want to say or refute, till this moment I really don't get what you want to say and I believe nor anyone who read this thread
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The wrote:
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# u can hardly speak for urself, bud...so dont bother speakin for all!
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dismissed and I guess Ii have to dismiss the rest of your crap
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The wrote:
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# lolz...now ghamdy's recitation and arabic text is crap...typical!
...anyway, u ve gone from "wannabeism" (abusing tashkil) to hypocrisy...not too far away from...? :-S
## take care, matey! (-:
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again, I'm not intending to divert this thread to a slandering game, you failed to understand what this thread is all about as well acted like a complete B****, therefore I have to continue dismissing your crap
salam
- Tue 12 Feb, 2008 7:27 pm
Post subject:
# u r dirt, bud...n u r rite...it's tuf bein at par wid dirt... :-S
## as for slanderin, u wer the 1 who has made a habit of it; i simply described u (-: ...and a typical hypocrite wid pathetic memory cant help bein anythin but dirt!
...n stop whinin n moanin...puhleez :-S
# take care, matey...salam! (-:
- Tue 12 Feb, 2008 7:35 pm
Post subject:
To brother Life
can you please clean this thread from the crap started by the, please split it and remove it to the rubbish bin, if you can't do it, please let me know and I will do it
cheers
*Edit*
Brother Life, don't worry about splitting it, let's keep it as evidences, I have already locked the thread
cheers
- Thu 14 Feb, 2008 1:05 am
Post subject: Re:
Hi,
I was away last few days and look what has happend. I advise 'THE' goto arcade cafe and chill out. However for above abusive posts you are demoded.
'THE' IS NO MORE AN ADMIN HERE
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