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Subhanallaah,
Thanks bro for detailed explanation. I could only turn towards you to guide me right. As you are mother tongue is Arabic and well versed in Quran, otherwise we have satan in and around to confuse us and burden us with such thoughts and deviates us from the right path
I especially liked the last paragraph explanation, regarding this generation who recite the Quran, who can read but dont understand.
Well thats, a good explanation. Thanks.
Posted:
Mon 15 Jan, 2007 12:21 am
Anonymous Guest
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Post subject: Hi guys I'm badshow!
Hi all,
You can call me badshow for now
I hope we form a good large communtty to discuss a lot of things, not at all necessary that anyone has to agree with anybody else.
Hope to have a strong and healthy conversation/debate but within limits.
See you around.
Posted:
Tue 15 May, 2007 2:38 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Quote:
badshow wrote:
Hi all,
You can call me badshow for now
I hope we form a good large communtty to discuss a lot of things, not at all necessary that anyone has to agree with anybody else.
Hope to have a strong and healthy conversation/debate but within limits.
See you around
# hi buddy! i am sure quite a few of us are hoping along with u! (-:
## do u mind registering, buddy? that way v won't have to wait before ur post gets approved...guest posts need approval and registered fells get auto-approved; ur call all the same! (-:
### see u, bud...take care! (-:
Posted:
Tue 15 May, 2007 4:38 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Listen J A H I L (Ignorant)
Ummi means the one who does is illiterate, i.e. does not now how to read nor write or at least does not know how to write
Don't mix J A H I L with Ummi you J A H I L, a J A H I L may know how to read and write like you but still an ignorant
Fathom wrote:
You are arguing with me instead of the evidence. Here, let me post the evidence and you can argue against that instead of me:
What evidences you Quran J A H I L?, oh yeh the ones you are parroting without having absolutely no knowledge what the hell you are parroting, let me expose ya again:
Ali Sina wrote:
The Sheep Mentality and De-individuation.
Yeh, the sheep mentality of the ignorant like ya
Fathom wrote:
Muslims call themselves Ummah. This word is of the same root of Ummi. Ummi is how Muhammad referred to himself and it means unlettered, unschooled, uneducated.
Haha, that was really funny, the word Ummah has nothing to do with the word Ummi you J A H I L, you can not use the root method to compare words mister ignorant. The word Ummah which means a Nation can apply to any nation, here it is ignorant, the following verse is talking about any Nation who rejected Allah message:
And on the day when We will gather from every nation a party from among those who rejected Our communications, then they shall be formed into groups. [The Quran ; 27:83]
وَيَوْمَ نَحْشُرُ مِن كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ فَوْجًا مِّمَّن يُكَذِّبُ بِآيَاتِنَا فَهُمْ يُوزَعُونَ (83)
-> See mister ignorant, Allah is talking about the unbelievers in every (Ummah), i.e. in every nation: وَيَوْمَ نَحْشُرُ مِن كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ فَوْجًا مِّمَّن يُكَذِّبُ بِآيَاتِنَا , i.e. And on the day when We will gather from every nation a party from among those who rejected Our communications ,
I.E. the word Ummah applies to any nation not just the Muslims only you clear cut liar
Here is another example so I make sure that your ignorance is exposed and cleared:
And you shall see every nation kneeling down; every nation shall be called to its book: today you shall be rewarded for what you did. [The Quran ; 45:28]
وَتَرَى كُلَّ أُمَّةٍ جَاثِيَةً كُلُّ أُمَّةٍ تُدْعَى إِلَى كِتَابِهَا الْيَوْمَ تُجْزَوْنَ مَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ (28)
-> See mister ignorant, in the verse above Allah is talking about what is going to happen to every Ummah, i.e. every nation on the JD: وَتَرَى كُلَّ أُمَّةٍ جَاثِيَةً كُلُّ أُمَّةٍ تُدْعَى إِلَى كِتَابِهَا , i.e. And you shall see every nation kneeling down; every nation shall be called to its book , hahahaha, see, EVERY NATION WILL BE CALLED TO ITS BOOK, i.e. the Ummah of Jesus will be called to its Injil, the Ummah of Moses will be called to its Torah, the Ummah of David will be called to its Zabur, the Ummah of Mohammed will be called to its Quran.
Do you want more or that was enough to expose your ignorance?
Now the prlural of the word أُمَّةٍ , Ummah, i.e. Nation, is word أُمَمٍ , Umam, i.e. Nations, here is an example from the Quran:
And We have appointed for them comrades so they have made fair-seeming to them what is before them and what is behind them, and the word proved true against them-- among the nations of the jinn and the men that have passed away before them-- that they shall surely be losers. [The Quran ; 41:25]
وَقَيَّضْنَا لَهُمْ قُرَنَاء فَزَيَّنُوا لَهُم مَّا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَحَقَّ عَلَيْهِمُ الْقَوْلُ فِي أُمَمٍ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِم مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ إِنَّهُمْ كَانُوا خَاسِرِينَ (25)
-> See igrnoant, the verse above is talking about all the nations from among the Humans and from among the Jinns, hahahaha : فِي أُمَمٍ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِم مِّنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ , i.e. among the nations of the jinn and the men that have passed away before them
I will give ya another example to the plural Umam (nations) of the singular Ummah (nation) to make sure that I have destroyed your ignorance, so being an ignorant regarding this subject won?????????????????????¢??t be an excuse any more:
And if you reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message). [The Quran ; 29:18]
وَإِن تُكَذِّبُوا فَقَدْ كَذَّبَ أُمَمٌ مِّن قَبْلِكُمْ وَمَا عَلَى الرَّسُولِ إِلَّا الْبَلَاغُ الْمُبِينُ (18)
-> See mister ignorant., the verse above is talking about all Umam (nations) who rejected their messengers: وَإِن تُكَذِّبُوا فَقَدْ كَذَّبَ أُمَمٌ مِّن قَبْلِكُمْ , i.e. And if you reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth);
Therefore, for ya to come in here parroting a lie without even knowing what you are parroting is nothing but a clear cut case of ignorance, you indeed proved to everyone of us (believers) that you are nothing but a confused ignorant to come and tell us that the word Ummiyeen is the plural of the word Ummah, if I?????????????????????¢??m you, you should find a place now to burry your pinhead.
Fathom wrote:
Therefore Ummah means the community of the unlettered followers.
Hahahahaa, you are such an ignorant, read the verses above again then please burry your ignorant head for a couple of days then afterward come an thank me because I taught ya something
Fathom wrote:
In the case of Muhammad this implied that his knowledge was of a divine source.
and how about all other nations (Umam) the Quran talked about above?
You are such and ignorant parrot, I reckon after I irrefutably exposed your ignorance above I should dismiss the rest of your non sense, well, I reckon this is fun to expose an ignorant parrot like ya, let me go through the rest of your non sense
Fathom wrote:
However that distinction does not apply to the Ummah. Hence Ummah, by definition means the ignorant mass of believers.
hahahahaha, I should ya above you ignorant that the word Ummah applies to even those who rejected the message, i.e. the Ummah of the unbelievers, man this is a total waste of my valued time, I have plenty of DB work and now I have to read sich non sense by a bunch of ignorant parrots
And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned: (Ummiyeen) "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?"
That is right ignorant, the verse above is talking about the ones who received a scripture and the arabs, at that time the majority of the Arabs didn?????????????????????¢??t know how to read nor write, even the Jews used to call them Ummiyeen
Fathom wrote:
Here the word Ummiyeen الأُمِّيِّينَ which is the plural of Ummi is translates as:
Yep it is the plural of Ummi but now you know well that it is not the plural of Ummah (nation)
Fathom wrote:
Yusuf Ali: those who are unlearned:
Pickthal: those who read not
Shakir: the unlearned people
That is right, all three translators are accurate because the arabs at that time were labelled Ummiyeen by the jews themselves as see below:
And among the followers of the Book there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a heap of wealth, he shall pay it back to you; and among them there are some such that if you entrust one (of them) with a dinar he shall not pay it back to you except so long as you remain firm in demanding it; this is because they say: There is not upon us in the matter of the Ummaiyeen people any way (to reproach); and they tell a lie against Allah while they know. [The Quran ; 3:75]
وَمِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ مَنْ إِن تَأْمَنْهُ بِقِنطَارٍ يُؤَدِّهِ إِلَيْكَ وَمِنْهُم مَّنْ إِن تَأْمَنْهُ بِدِينَارٍ لاَّ يُؤَدِّهِ إِلَيْكَ إِلاَّ مَا دُمْتَ عَلَيْهِ قَآئِمًا ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَالُواْ لَيْسَ عَلَيْنَا فِي الأُمِّيِّينَ سَبِيلٌ وَيَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللّهِ الْكَذِبَ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ (75)
-> See above, the verse is about a trust between Quraish and the people of the book, some of the people of the book dishonoured some trusts and said: There is not upon us in the matter of the unlettered people any way (to reproach) , i.e. the people of the book, mostly Jews were labelling the Arabs (unlettered) not because they are ignorant of a specific scripture rather because most of Arabs at that time didn?????????????????????¢??t know how to read nor write, i.e Ummiyeen
"They say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans).(Ummiyeen)"
Yusuf Ali translates this word in this verse as ignorant.
Pickthal translates it as Gentiles.
And Shakir translates the word as unlearned people.
The noun "gentile" is generally applied to an individual who is ignorant of the Scriptures. In English the synonym for "gentile" is "pagan".
That is what I dicussed above and your argument is dismissed due your clear ignorance.
Fathom wrote:
Historically, the term gentile was used by the governing Romans for the non-Romans (foreigners); it was adopted by the Jews to denote the non-Jews; in turn the Christians used it for the Pagans. In the Qur'an the term al-Ummiyeen, is generally translated as "the Unlettered folks". The verse 62:2 reads,
Yusuf Ali translates this thus:
"It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves,"
Yep, Mohammed was sent between the Arabs who were mostly Ummiyeen at the time, i.e. most of the Arabs didn?????????????????????¢??t know how to read nor write INCLUDING MOHAMMED HIMSELF.
Fathom wrote:
And in his commentary he writes: "The Unlettered: as applied to a people, it refers to the Arabs, in comparison with the People of the Book..."
Exactly, you just slam dunked yourself
Fathom wrote:
Verse: 2:78
وَمِنْهُمْ أُمِّيُّونَ لاَ يَعْلَمُونَ الْكِتَابَ
And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book,
Hahaha, the verse above is talking about the jews mister ignorant, i.e. from the Jews there were some who didn?????????????????????¢??t know how to read nor write
That is another self slam and with that one you should now recognise your fatal mistake, the word Ummiyeen can be given to any group if they donlt know how to read nor write, and in the above verse 2:78 we read that some of the Jews were called Ummiyoon
Fathom wrote:
The root of Ummi is "Um" (mother). A literal translation of that into English would be ?????????????????????¢??Natural?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, although the two words have taken different meanings in time. Etymologically, Ummi is the natural state of being ignorant and unlearned, as when born by mother.
Dismissed due to your ignorance
Fathom wrote:
So Ummah is the uneducated and unlettered mass of people who are ignorant of the scriptures and hence unable to find their way.
hahahaha, here is the Quran is telling us about those very well educated Ummah of believers:
You are the best nation raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the followers of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them (some) are believers and most of them are transgressors. [The Quran ; 3:110]
كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُم مِّنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ (110)
-> See ignorant, كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ , i.e. You are the best nation raised up for (the benefit of) men , this is because most believers: enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah
I told ya, you need to burry your head fast.
Fathom wrote:
The Ummah is in constant need of guidance. Imam, also from the same root, is one who leads the Ummah. This is basically the concept of sheep and shepherd. The entire community of Muslims is deemed to be sheep in need of shepherd.[/b]
but the verse above didn?????????????????????¢??t say we need that shepherd to be the best nation, read what it says again mister ignorant: You are the best nation raised up for (the benefit of) men; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah;.
Fathom wrote:
Now deal with it.
Yep I have to deal with it and dismiss ya for life due to the following:
1) You are only parroting lies
2) You are a clear cut ignorant
3) You are wasting and robbing my valued time
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject: Re:
Imagine root word Um so he tried to connect in all the ways.
Posted:
Sat 11 Aug, 2007 6:45 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam all
This thread needs to be revived, the goons of FFI started to parrot their crap regarding their lie that Mohammed knew how to read nor write and the word Ummi does not mean illiterate, this time they referring to the freak minders of www.free-minds.org
In may many conversations with Muslim believers, one of the key things that has been brought up as to why Mohamed was a Prophet and chosen of God is that he was an illiterate... unable to read or write yet he produced the Koran.
When reading last night I found something that jumped out at me and wanted to ask the question of others here.
According to Tabari 9:174 on Mohameds death bed "The Messenger's pain became so severe he said, 'Give me pen and paper so I may write a document for you so you will never go astray after me.'"
1) Would it stand to reason that the man who married Khadija and conducted business for her would be illiterate and unable to read or write?
2) Why would he ask for paper and writing implement if he were unable to read or write? Was it to draw cartoons perhaps?
3) Is it possible that between the authorship of the Koran and his near death, he had learned how to read and write... despite spending so much time raping, murdering and pillaging?
Haji Murad is a very confused kafir and enemy of Islam and Allah who portrays himself as an Arabic expert on FFI, I exposed him many times and proved that he does not even know the Arabic Alphabet, please go there and see for yourself, he replied quickly trying his to acieve his decietful mission of misleading those who know absoutely nothing about the Arabic language, similar tactics to the freak minders of F M,
This is how I replied to him:
Haji Murad wrote:
Quran says Muhammad was "Ummiyy" does it mean he was illiterate?
the Quran does not only say that Mohammed was Ummi, it clearly tells us that he never knew how to read noot write, here it is for you to clear more ignornace that you posses:
And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted. [The Quran ; 29:48]
وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ (48)
-> Clearly it says وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ, And you did not recite before it any book,, i.e. Mohammad never read a book before, then it says وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand
-> Therefore from 29:48, And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand SHOULD IRREFUTABLY MEAN THAT MOHAMMED WAS ILLITERATE
The resident ignorant of FFI who claimed to have studied the Quran in Arabic has been exposed again, I told ya, it is too much fun exposing the ignorant
hahaha
---------------------------------
There are some noises around the thread but more goons, however I picked on whom I'm targetting, the others are currently in either the dismissal room or the waiting room,
Haji Murad of FFI asked me to bring the context of 29:48, a stupipd request because as you have seen above that In already did the verse walkthrough, I actually assumed that he wants the verses before and after 29:48 despite he was never clear about that, therefore I asked him that he be the one to do so:
Haji Murad wrote:
Hi Ahmed Bahgat, Resident ignorant Haji Murad here with a request:
Can you please bring it all in context? <<< and >>> 29:48 ?
Just bring the verses and no sweat. I will do the rest. I hope you may do. Cheers Haji Murad
Hello
How about you bring the verses before it and after it and walk us through it and I will come later and expose you if you fault
deal?
cheers
----------------------------------------
So he did, but sort of he did not, let me explain, this is his reply to my request above:
Haji Murad wrote:
Okay my friend. I will bring them and if you don't mind tell us interpretate those verses:وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَهُنَا وَإِلَهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُون
[b]Quran Chapter: 29 Ankaboot (The Spider) 46-51: And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender
In like manner We have revealed unto thee the Scripture, and those unto whom We gave the Scripture aforetime will believe therein; and of these (also) there are some who believe therein. And none deny our revelations save the disbelievers
And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.
But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny our revelations save wrongdoers
And they say: Why are not portents sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Portents are with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner.
Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto thee the Scripture which is read unto them? Lo! herein verily is mercy, and a reminder for folk who believe. [End of Picktal translation]
Please don't inflate the post, just tell us the context reading altogether.
Cheers
HM
As you can see, he did nothing but copying the arabic verses and some translation by others, therefore my reply to the above was this:
Let?????????????????????¢??s see what H M has to say:
Let me reply to this first:
Haji Murad wrote:
Please don't inflate the post, just tell us the context reading altogether.
Hahah, look who is talking, look, stop acting confused, you are the one who inflames every thread with your typical crap, look what you did regarding the rules when I accepted to debate you thinking that your are a smart/reasonable human, however you proved me wrong for sure
Let me tell ya, you can?????????????????????¢??t tell me the way I post in any thread, this is not your business, however in the debate between us I would have given you such right, therefore you need to stfu regarding the way I post to the public and not to your arse, fair enough?
After clearing the above, let me now see what you hahve to say regarding 29:48
Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
Hello
How about you bring the verses before it and after it and walk us through it and I will come later and expose you if you fault
deal?
cheers
Haji Murad wrote:
Okay my friend.
Well, you really need to stop fooling yourself or at least you need to keep your hypocrisy indoors, it won?????????????????????¢??t work with me, simply I?????????????????????¢??m not your friend, I?????????????????????¢??m your enemy.
Haji Murad wrote:
I will bring them and if you don't mind tell us interpretate those verses:
Hmmm, that is not what I asked ya, firstly Ii know how to bring any Quran verse, what I asked you is your walkthrough to support any argument you have, seems like you failed again, let me confirm that
Great, now let?????????????????????¢??s see if you presented an argument regarding the above:
Haji Murad wrote:
And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender
In like manner We have revealed unto thee the Scripture, and those unto whom We gave the Scripture aforetime will believe therein; and of these (also) there are some who believe therein. And none deny our revelations save the disbelievers
And thou (O Muhammad) wast not a reader of any scripture before it, nor didst thou write it with thy right hand, for then might those have doubted, who follow falsehood.
But it is clear revelations in the hearts of those who have been given knowledge, and none deny our revelations save wrongdoers
And they say: Why are not portents sent down upon him from his Lord? Say: Portents are with Allah only, and I am but a plain warner.
Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto thee the Scripture which is read unto them? Lo! herein verily is mercy, and a reminder for folk who believe. [End of Picktal translation]
Holy crap, and your argument is?
You need to understand the following very well,
I?????????????????????¢??m not here to teach the kafir goons the Quran, in fact I?????????????????????¢??m happy that they stay dumb and ignorant regarding it because this gives me a lot of material to expose them on a daily basis
Therefore you need to tell me what is your argument based on your understanding to the above and if you are right I will concede to you and if you wrong (most likely) then Ii will expose you with no mercy as I always do wiit5h you and the likes of you
Haji Murad wrote:
Cheers
HM
No worries, I hope now that you understand what you need to do
cheers
----------------------------
Haji Murad came back with his usual crap:
Haji Murad wrote:
Hi Ahmed Bahgat,
You wrote:
Therefore from 29:48, And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand SHOULD IRREFUTABLY MEAN THAT MOHAMMED WAS ILLITERATE
This was your argument. I quoted you exactly.
Now I brought more verses to just get an understanding of the context. My argument is:
From these verses 29:48 you can not conclude Muhammad was illiterate. "Thilawath" doesn't mean "reading" here., besides transcribing with right hand is metaphorical. Do you have any counter argument?
Cheers
HM
More crap by him, so I replied again:
Haji Murad wrote:
Hi Ahmed Bahgat,
Hello
You wrote:
Therefore from 29:48, And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand SHOULD IRREFUTABLY MEAN THAT MOHAMMED WAS ILLITERATE
Haji Murad wrote:
This was your argument. I quoted you exactly.
That's right, 29:48 says that Mohammed did not Yatlu any book (Nakirah without an Al) nor he wrote any book before the Quran, because if he did then the kafirs would have doubted that possibly he wrote the Quran himself from other materials that he read before the Quran revelation
i.e. 29:48 confirms that Mohammed didn't know how to read nor write
Haji Murad wrote:
Now I brought more verses to just get an understanding of the context. My argument is:
that is only if the verses before it and after has some sort of connection to 29:48 which is a possibility of course but you faiiled to present such connection to support any argument that you may have
Haji Murad wrote:
From these verses 29:48 you can not conclude Muhammad was illiterate. "Thilawath" doesn't mean"reading" here.
well, it is pronounced Tilawah, not what you wrote above
Tilawah means reading mister, either from a book or from the mind
Why don't you enlighten us and tell us what Ummi means?
Haji Murad wrote:
, besides transcribing with right hand is metaphorical. Do you have any counter argument?
Takhtuh Bi Yaminak means to write with your right hand, mister
what metaphor is in there, would you mind to tell us?
Haji Murad wrote:
Cheers
HM
No worries
-------------------------------
He is a real time robber, it kept ping pomging between myself and him for some time, here is the highlights
Haji Murad wrote:
Ahmed...you are slipping again. I brought the verses to prove if we read them in context, it tells us Allah the alleged God tells Muhammad that he didn't recite any scriptures (Torah and Injeel) before. That doesn't mean he couldn't read. For example, I can tell you I haven't recite Ilyad of Homer. Does that make me illiterate?
Tilawat doesn't mean reading: If it was so: What do these verses talk about?
Quran: 13:30
Thus We send thee (O Muhammad) unto a nation, before whom other nations have passed away, that thou mayst recite unto them that which We have inspired in thee, while they are disbelievers in the Beneficent. Say: He is my Lord; there is no God save Him. In Him do I put my trust and unto Him is my recourse.
God tells Muhammad to recite. How can an illiterate recite or read?
After dealing this, we can move onto writing with right hand. One subject at a time okay..?
Cheers
HM
It is you who always slips, remember your translation to Ariel?
Read above again mister confused, Allah AWHA (i.e. inspired Mohammed) to recite the Quran from his mind or behind the angel sent with it to him, whatever way you want to take it, Mohammed read from either his mind or behind another entity that taught him (an angel of course), for the believers they need to do the same, i.e. Tatlu Al Quran, and the Tilawah can be achived by any of the following methods:
1) Read it from a book
2) Read it from the mind
3) Read it behind another person who reads it it either from the mind or from a book
you have no bloody point, and I can assure you that you won't be able to refute 29:48 because the freakminders of free-minds.org did their best two years ago wiith me and failed, and I'm sure the freakminders know the Quran far better than you do, at least they believe in it
let's now stop wasting time and move on to another related subject, the way you mentioned the word Ummi to another poster implies that you certainly know what it means, why not enlighten us and tell us what the Arabic word Ummi means?, this is the second time Ii asked you and you are clearly implementing the kafir commmon trick (turn a blind eye), but this is not going to worl with me as you know
Posted:
Sat 19 Apr, 2008 11:30 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Here is more highlights:
Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
It is you who always slips, remember your translation to Ariel?
Read above again mister confused, Allah AWHA (i.e. inspired Mohammed) to recite the Quran from his mind or behind the angel sent with it to him, whatever way you want to take it, Mohammed read from either his mind or behind another entity that taught him (an angel of course), for the believers they need to do the same, i.e. Tatlu Al Quran, and the Tilawah can be achived by any of the following methods:
1) Read it from a book
2) Read it from the mind
3) Read it behind another person who reads it it either from the mind or from a book
you have no bloody point, and I can assure you that you won't be able to refute 29:48 because the freakminders of free-minds.org did their best two years ago wiith me and failed, and I'm sure the freakminders know the Quran far better than you do, at least they believe in it
let's now stop wasting time and move on to another related subject, the way you mentioned the word Ummi to another poster implies that you certainly know what it means, why not enlighten us and tell us what the Arabic word Ummi means?, this is the second time Ii asked you and you are clearly implementing the kafir commmon trick (turn a blind eye), but this is not going to worl with me as you know
Haji Murad wrote:
Enduring all those personal insults,
and why the Muslims have to endure your insults, lies, ignornace against, Allah, Islam, the Quran and Mohammed?
you chose that path then you have to drink from the same glass
stop trying to gain compassion, I know well that you are a clear cut shifty human
Haji Murad wrote:
I still ask you why don't you deal the subject at hand?
Didn't I deal with it mister time bandit and presented 29:48?
so far you have not said anything but your ignorance regarding the word Yatlu which I refuted because I'm the Arabic expert not you, you even wrote in English wrong, Thilawath, which of course should be Tilawah as I informed you
Haji Murad wrote:
You brought verses to state Muhammad was illiterate.
and did you refute it?
you are wasting my time so far
Haji Murad wrote:
My argument is your argument based on verses 29:48 is insufficient prove Muhammad was illiterate.
Did I ever said so?
no i didn't
here what I mean all along, 29:48 along with calling Mohammed Ummi are compelling proofs that he never read or wrote a book before the Quran
Haji Murad wrote:
Now if you concede to me that they are not sufficient,
Dismissed
Haji Murad wrote:
we can move on.
Yeh, let's move on
Haji Murad wrote:
So..what's your position now? Do you withdraw your claim based on Verse 29:48? Or stick with it and argue Muhammad was illiterate?
dismissed
Haji Murad wrote:
"Ummiyy" "Right hand" These both can be dealt after this. Rest assured.
yeh, let's deal it with it now, what do you have to say?
Haji Murad wrote:
Now I refuted your hypothesis based on 29:48 that Muhammad not reciting previous scriptures doesn't mean he was illiterate.
Excuse me mister confused, 29:48 didn't say that Mohammed didn't read a scripture before the Quran, IT SAID MOHAMMED DIDN'T READ ANY BOOK BEFORE THE QUARN
stop manipulating the Arabic langugae to suit your low desires, it is not going to work with me and will only confirm your ignornat status
Haji Murad wrote:
If it was so, Allah wouldn't have commanded him to read Quran or recite Quran. In both places the verbal form of Tilawa is used. In verse 29:48, the undertone is Muhammad wasn't aware of any previous scriptures.
again mister confused, 29:48 NEVER MENTIONED ANY PREVIOUS SCRIPTURES, it only mentioneed ANY BOOK (NAKIRAH)
do you know what Nakirah means mister Arabic expert?
Haji Murad wrote:
Or he hasn't recited any previous scriptures.
you keep repeating your flawed crap regarding 29:48, why not show us where it said previous scriptures?
till then Ii hahve to dismiss you crap below:
Haji Murad wrote:
And if you argue it proves Muhammad was illiterate, then why Allah later commands him with the same word (li tatluwa)? That means Tatluwa alone is not an evidence for Muhammad being illiterate. Do you get the point?
Haji Murad
dismissed
-------------------------------
And more:
Haji Murad wrote:
Ahmed Bahgat,
I haven't got enough time to waste on this. This would be the last time I am explaining.
This is your post: You can't deny it.
Quote:
And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand, for then could those who say untrue things have doubted. [The Quran ; 29:48]
وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ إِذًا لَّارْتَابَ الْمُبْطِلُونَ (48)
-> Clearly it says وَمَا كُنتَ تَتْلُو مِن قَبْلِهِ مِن كِتَابٍ, And you did not recite before it any book,, i.e. Mohammad never read a book before, then it says وَلَا تَخُطُّهُ بِيَمِينِكَ, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand
-> Therefore from 29:48, And you did not recite before it any book, nor did you transcribe one with your right hand SHOULD IRREFUTABLY MEAN THAT MOHAMMED WAS ILLITERATE
The resident ignorant of FFI who claimed to have studied the Quran in Arabic has been exposed again, I told ya, it is too much fun exposing the ignorant
hahaha
Now please focus:
First, I asked you to bring the verses before and after 29:48. When you refused, I did bring. From the structure or context we understand God is speaking of previous scriptures. Verse 29:46 clearly indicating People of the Book (Ahlul Kitab) and as it continues, God says Muhammad hadn't read those books means scriptures of Ahlul Kitab = Injeel and Torah. Am I right or not?
And you want to argue it is an evidence Muhammad was illiterate. The verse alone. That was your argument, scroll button will help you. Therefore, I dealt the first part of the verse which mentions reciting. Allah said Muhammad he didn't recite previous scriptures. (Again read the verses in context) That is not a sufficient evidence he was illiterate. If you agree we can move on the next transcribing with right hand. Are you?
HM
It is me who should not waste anytime on that, here is your final chance to explain yourself
show us that according to the Quran that Mohammed can not be illiterate, and I will do the opposite and leave it to the public
now to answer you question, yes 29:48 is enough evidence to prove that Mohammed never read nor write any book untill the Quran was revealed
now being called Ummi is also another complelling proof that he indeed never knew how to read nor write
i.e. I DO NOT concede that 29:48 is not enough evidence that Mohammed did not know how to read nor write any book prior to the Quran revelation,. in fact it is enough of an evidence to prove that he was as such
now it is your turn to answer the following:
1) where we read "previous scriptures" in 29:48?
2) what is the meaning of Ummi?
-------------------------------
So he came back with his final chance to explain himself, here is the breakup of it along wiith my replies:
Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
It is me who should not waste anytime on that, here is your final chance to explain yourself
Haji Murad wrote:
Final chance accepted.
Great, let?????????????????????¢??s see what you have in your bag
Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
show us that according to the Quran that Mohammed can not be illiterate, and I will do the opposite and leave it to the public
Haji Murad wrote:
See Ahmed Bahgat, this fallacy is called shifting the burden of proof. Since you are not familiar with logic, it would simply be a waste of time to tutor you of fallacies. Yet let me explain.
I?????????????????????¢??m glad you conceded that you are going to waste my time with such typical kafir crap that I name ?????????????????????¢??cook a fallacy?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? that you invented and named it as such, again it is not going to work with me
You have conceded to me before that when you are going too discuss Islam with me, you are ging to use the Quran only, now I?????????????????????¢??m asking you:
Why the hell my request that you prove that Mohammed was not illiterate according to the Quran is now a fallacy?
Of course it is not and only indicates that you have no evidence from the Quran to support your allegation, on the other hand I have presented one evidence so far 29:48 which you failed to refute, I still have one evidence in my bag pending you answering my question to what Ummi means
Haji Murad wrote:
What is this argument all about? You guys say Muhammad the person was illiterate according to Quran. It is your claim.
Of course, according to the Quran only Mohammed was 100% illiterate, i.e. did not know how to read nor write any book
Haji Murad wrote:
Now when I am asking for proof, you are shifting it to me asking where does it say in Quran Muhammad was literate.
I?????????????????????¢??m not shifting it, I?????????????????????¢??m only dealing with a shifty guy who is dodging 29:48 as well dodging to answer my question to what Ummi means
Haji Murad wrote:
I didn't make any claim here. All my argument consists you can't prove Muhammad was illiterate from Quran.
Of course I have proved it, 29:48 is enough of a proof that he didn?????????????????????¢??t know how to read nor write any book before the Quran, in fact 29:48 also refers directly to the Quran that he never wrote it as I will explain later
Haji Murad wrote:
It is unto you to prove using Quran Muhammad was illiterate. I am not liable as far as I am not the one who makes such a claim. Just for example: If I ask you can you prove Muhammad is not a bastard using Quran alone, how would you reply?
what you are missing is this:
I stated that the Quran confirms Mohammed illiteracy status and presented one compelling evidence so far
Now if you oppose that Mohammed was illiterate according to the Quran then you need to bring to us from the Quran what supports your allegation, it is not like you oppose for the sake of opposing, these type of behaviour must be dismissed
Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
now to answer you question, yes 29:48 is enough evidence to prove that Mohammed never read nor write any book untill the Quran was revealed
now being called Ummi is also another complelling proof that he indeed never knew how to read nor write
i.e. I DO NOT concede that 29:48 is not enough evidence that Mohammed did not know how to read nor write any book prior to the Quran revelation,. in fact it is enough of an evidence to prove that he was as such
Haji Murad wrote:
Dear Ahmed, readers of this forum are not idiots. You made this claim. See it here: This is your own quote:
Clelar to methat you started to confuse the subject
(I) Haji Murad wrote:
My argument is your argument based on verses 29:48 is insufficient prove Muhammad was illiterate.
Here is your answer:
(You) Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
Did I ever said so?
no i didn't
[/quote]
Of course prior to that I never said so, but as the dialogued continued I stated so, are you that confused or something?
Soynds like you are desperate indeed
Haji Murad wrote:
This is your own argument. You can't deny it or edit it because I quoted it. So what is your final position? Do you stick with verse 29:48
Of course I stick with 29:48 as sufficient proof, how may times I have to confirm that?
Again, you either confused or trying hard to confuse the subject
Now not because that I presented 29:48 as compelling Quran proof, I stated that I have also another Quran proof in the my bag pending you answer the Question:
What Ummi means?
Are you bloody going to answer this question?
Also don?????????????????????¢??t forget the other question, where in 29:48 we read ?????????????????????¢??previous scriptures?
Haji Murad wrote:
or do you need another back up from Quran? Make it clear, so that I can move on.
no back up in here, rather another compelling proof, see the Quran presented two proofs:
1) very simple to a child, by using the words ?????????????????????¢??didn?????????????????????¢??t read nor write a book before the Quran revelation?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
2) using the highly linguistic Arabic word ?????????????????????¢??Ummi?????????????????????¢??????????????????????, now I?????????????????????¢??m asking you what Ummi means?
Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
now it is your turn to answer the following:
1) where we read "previous scriptures" in 29:48?
Haji Murad wrote:
How does it happen to be 48 only? To be in numerical order 48 should follow 47,46,45...Isn't it so?
You will not be able to manipulate the Quran to suit your ignorance
The word used in 29:48 is Nakirah, i.e. UNKNOWN, i.e. does not have the AL, which was Kitab, i.e. UNKNOWN book, i.e. ANY BOOK, why don?????????????????????¢??t you go and study some basic Arabic grammars before you mislead your pals?
Haji Murad wrote:
Why don't you read your book in context? Can you single out a verse and argue with it? Can you? If it is so, then deal this single verse of Quran:
إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا رَجُلٌ بِهِ جِنَّةٌ فَتَرَبَّصُوا بِهِ حَتَّى حِينٍ
23:25 He is nothing but a madman: so bear with him for a while.?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
Don't touch any other verses before or after it. Argue with this verse alone who is this madman? and who is talking in this verse.
What crap is that man, the above has to be dismissed
Again, the word used in 29:48 is Nakirah, that does not have Al therefore it has to mean ANY BOOK and has nothing to do with scriptures other than ANY BOOK should cover any scriptures
Haji Murad wrote:
Once you deal this effectively, I will make it clear for you why the verse you brought to argue should be read in context.
you will not be able too because you lack the basic knowledge of the Arabic grammar that any noun that does not have the Al must be UNKNOWN, i.e. it can be ANY, and in the context of 29:48 the noun is Kitab, without the Al, therefore it has to mean ANY BOOK, that is what you need to deal with
Ahmed Bahgat wrote:
2) what is the meaning of Ummi?
Haji Murad wrote:
I have a clear understanding on the "Ummi" found in Quran. When you make any claim with it, I will do my part by all means. First; deal the issues before it. Then tell us what does this particular "Ummi" means to you. Then refutation will follow and take my word for that.
Good luck
HM
Oh please, I dealt with all you crap which mostly are based on ignorance, now see your comment in the first page in this thread, you tried to quiz a Muslim brother regarding the word Ummi, now I?????????????????????¢??m quizzing you regarding the same word, you can simply say you don?????????????????????¢??t know, I will accept that as an answer, please drop that deluded attitude: look people I know it all
-------------------
Then I reminded him with he needs to deal with:
See what you said to the other Muslim on page 1:
Haji Murad wrote:
Hi Yassine,
Quran says Muhammad was "Ummiyy" does it mean he was illiterate?
Cheers. Haji Murad
Now I'm asking you
what is the meaning of the word Ummi ?
be brave and answer the damn question
Posted:
Sat 19 Apr, 2008 11:33 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
This meant that I have to salvage my time and dismiss him, this is what i did:
Hello all
i have to dismiss that freak ignorant H m who called Mohammed a bastard, as you know those lowest of the lows will have no dialogue with me, they only belong to the rubbish bin and I have t keep them trapped inside it, let me now add value to this thread, here it is from my web site:
I copied what I said to brother SOA on this thread, so no need to put it in here again.
----------------------
Because H M has been slam dunked, his kafir pals must come quick to give him a kafir helping hand, so I kept dismmissing them from page # 3 to page # 7, on page # 7 however I added the following:
Hello all,
Let me recap the arguments presenetd by the ignorant kafirs on this thread:
A) Ummi means a non jew:
Ahmed says: But the Jews were called Ummyoon in 2:78, therefore Tom and jerry argument # A presented by the goons must be:
B) Ummi means the one who received no scripture:
Ahmed says: Same argument in A) applies because the Jews received a scripture and were also called Ummyoon in 2:78, in addition to that, Mohammed can't be called an Ummi nor his followers because he and his followers received a scripture as well, therefore Barbie argument # B presented by the goons must be:
C) Ummi means those who are not learnt in a scripture:
Ahmed says: But the moment Mohammed was taught the first verse he can not be unlearned in a scripture any more, i.e. you can't come half way during his learning to the Quran and call him that he is not learnt in a scripture, therefore Donald Duck argument # C presented by the goons must be:
D) Ummi means common people:
Ahmed says: This is just too stupid of an argument by pussy cat that I have to dismiss it on the spot:
Therefore, we are only left that Ummi means Illiterate, which fits like a glove:
1) Mohammed did not know how to read nor write
2) The majority of the Arabs don't know how to read nor write at the time and up to this second, in fact the Ummyoon percentage in Egypt when I left it 20 years ago was 70%, i.e. for every 100, 70 of them were Ummyoon, this is a culture thingy as they bring children to help them in the fields of agriculture, that is why the Egyptian government created the program Mahw Al Ummia, i.e. Earsing Illiteracy
3) You can call a group of people with a adjective that describe the majority of them, common between them, i.e. if 70% of the Egyptians are illierate then I can virtually refer to all of them as such in a speech and the context should be covering both especially when both lack the knoweldge of the message and they are about to learn it from someone else
4) Some of the jews at the time, did not know how to read nor write and consequently they lacked the knoweldge of their own scriptures, therefore it is valid to say SOME of them were Ummyoon because we are talking the minority in here not the majority with the Arabs case, and this is how accurate the Quran is, amazing (to the word), it called the Arabs Ummyoon while calling SOME of the Jews Ummyoon
There is nothing really more to say any more, but we know the goons will keep coming with their repeated crap that is only motivated by their ignorance and the humilaition of being slam dunked and defeated from all angles.
Salam
-----------------------------------------
One of the dismissed goons named Mindstorm kept parroting his crap which really gives me the headache so I needed to deal with him:
Hello all
Let me show you how I catch a clear cut dumb who copy and paste crap without even reading it, after I expose him he will be dismissed for life, I don?????????????????????¢??t even need to look AGAIN at the two verses he is insisting to refer to in sura 7
This is what the dumb bum brought to us:
The confused dumb bum Mindstorm wrote:
Here's what Dr. G. Adisoma (add another one to the scholar list) had to say.
Quote:
The Muslim scholars derived the illiteracy concept for Muhammad from verses 7:157-158 of the Quran. They say that the word ummy means illiterate. It is true that in today?????????????????????¢??s standard Arabic, "illiterate" is one of the meaning of this word. But this is not a compelling evidence, since "gentile" is also another meaning of it. In fact, if we study the Quran carefully where this word is found, its usage has always been in the context of "the people of the scripture" vs. "the gentiles" (see for example 3:20, 3:75, 62:2, 2:78). It is even possible to surmise that the "illiterate" meaning is secondary. It came to be used after the Quran was revealed, since it is reasonable to deduct "illiterate" as the opposite of "those who can read." This in turn may well be coming from "those who read the book," or "those who received the book," or "the people of the book" (ahl al-Kitab), which is precisely the opposite of "the gentiles."
Ahmed says:
Hahahahaha, see what the dumb Dr. G. Adisoma said above: since "gentile" is also another meaning of it.
Now, here is the definition of "gentile":
?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ Most commonly, a gentile refers to any person who is not Jewish, or who is not a follower of the Jewish faith.
?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢ This is the term the Jews used since the time of Jesus (and probably long before) for anyone who was not Jewish.
Clearly, gentile means anyone who is not a Jewish
But the dumb bum Dr Dr. G. Adisoma and his fellower the dumber Mindstorm are telling us: see for example 3:20, 3:75, 62:2, 2:78
Can you see the underlined verse: 2:78
Now go and read it and you should know well that 2:78 is calling some of the Jews Ummyoon
Let me recap it for you
1) The dumb Dr G. Adisoma is telling us Ummi means Gentile means Non Jews
2) The dumber mindstorm brought to us what Dr Adisoma says
3) i.e. the dumber mindstorm agrees that Ummi means Gentile means Non Jews
4) The Dumb Dr G. Adisoma is giving us verse 2:78 as an evidence that Ummi means Gentile means Non Jews
5) Verse 2:78 is directed at the Jews and calling them Ummyoon
I. Bloody E.
1) According to the Quran Ummi can never mean Gentile and can never mean Non Jew because it is calling some of the Jews as Ummyoon, otherwise we have a big problem which is proving that Non Jew = a Jew, hahahahah
2) Dr G Adismons is a dumb bum and been exposed
3) Freak mindstorm is dumber than Dr G Adisoma and has been exposed and dismissed for life
And this should rap it up:
-------------------------------------------------
One of the goons added the following which I quickly dismissed along with him:
ygalg wrote:
Goy/Gentile can be referred to anyone, whatever rich or poor.
ummi otoh, addresses the sub-class people. they may know read and write but not as the aristocrats.
See what the goons tried to do:
Firstly the goons tried to manipulate the Arabic word Ummi that it means Gentile, but after I exposed them fair and square and proved that it can't be the case, they are now trying to manipulate the English word Gentile
You know, they are trying to invent something in between the Arabic meaning of Ummi and the English meaning of Gentile
hahahahahaha, see how desperate they are
Posted:
Sat 19 Apr, 2008 11:51 pm
SlaveofAllaah Site Admin
Status: Age: 42 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 25, 2006
Posts: 184 Location: Riyadh
Post subject: Re:
This is hilarious.
I ask these goons, who have no time but to play hide and seek with themselves, and conveniently say they are masters in Quran and Arabic.
I have just one point to them. Assuming Mohammed said he couldnt read and write dont these illogical guys think the non-muslims during the time of Mohammed would have ransaked him to make such a comment and later say this is from Allaah obviously MOhammed was either contradicting himself or the kafirs were fools.
Fine agreed he mentioned in the verse 29:48, but also in chapter 62 we have again got to know he was an UMMI, but dont they think if Mohammed passed such a comment again he should be taken for task of lying. But the kafirs could not do it simply because that was the truth, and if MOhammed made up his own words dont these kafirs think the Muslims would have left Mohammed as he must be lying.
So in all the fronts the argument is closed these guys gotta revamp the history, rummage all possible articles to understand whether this story is real or not.
Anyways bro AB nice reply, i pity them seriously
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