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Information AB vs Nicolei (FFI) - Is Allah the same God as YHVH?

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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: AB vs Nicolei (FFI) - Is Allah the same God as YHVH? Reply with quote  

Hello all from London

A christian on FFI invited me to a one on one debate:

Nicolei of FFI said:

This is an exclusive debate between AhmedBahgat and Nicolei, so respect our desires and do not post your comments. We are honored that you are interested in our debate and we thank you for it.

AhmedBahgat,

I propose that we refer the God of the Bible as YHVH and the God of the Koran as Allah. "God" will be the generic term to refer to what we understand to be the real god. This will save me typing "the God of the Bible" each time I refer refer to him.

If you are agreeable, I believe we should start with the presuppositions we have of this God to ensure that I will not be referring to an apple while it was an orange that you had in mind.

Below are some of the presuppositions I have of this God. I do not claim it to be exhaustive, as your presuppositions may provide new insights that I had not thought of. So please go through them, add your presuppositions and views- disagree or agree with the list below, thanks.
Quote:

There is only one true God.

God is infinitely holy

God is eternal and has no beginning or end.

God is independent of all. He is his own reference point and he is the reference point for all of creation.

God is a loving and merciful.

God is perfect and cannot make any mistakes

God is infinitely good, righteous and just. God cannot improve - for that will mean that God was not so good, perfect. righteous etc at some time in the past.

God is omnipotent - all powerful. No one can put any limit on him, however God is limited by who he is. This means that God cannot be "not God". This means that he cannot act in any way that negates or contradicts his attributes. This means that God is consistently good, just, holy etc. This question may bring out what I mean that God is limited by himself: If God is so powerful and all knowing, can God then tie a knot so complicated that God himself cannot untie? If God is indeed able to do everything and there are no limits for him, then he should be able to tie such a not. But by doing so God will negate himself and made himself "not God"

God is omniscient - all knowing. (Humans are finite so they will not be able to understanding everything. We believe our scriptures give/reveal sufficient answers, but not exhaustive answers)

God is omnipresent - he is/ can be everywhere.


I look forward to your contributions and your views.
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Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:18 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Nicolei wrote:
AhmedBahgat,

I propose that we refer the God of the Bible as YHVH and the God of the Koran as Allah. "God" will be the generic term to refer to what we understand to be the real god. This will save me typing "the God of the Bible" each time I refer refer to him.


Hello

I agree

Nicolei wrote:
If you are agreeable, I believe we should start with the presuppositions we have of this God to ensure that I will not be referring to an apple while it was an orange that you had in mind.


Great

Nicolei wrote:
Below are some of the presuppositions I have of this God. I do not claim it to be exhaustive, as your presuppositions may provide new insights that I had not thought of. So please go through them, add your presuppositions and views- disagree or agree with the list below, thanks.


Quote:
There is only one true God.


Agree


Nicolei wrote:
God is infinitely holy


Agree


Nicolei wrote:
God is eternal and has no beginning or end.


i disagree slightly

I say, God is the beginning and the end

Nicolei wrote:
God is independent of all.


Agree

Nicolei wrote:
He is his own reference point and he is the reference point for all of creation.


Not sure what you mean that He is a reference point?

Nicolei wrote:
God is a loving and merciful.


In this life, yes He indeed is loving and merciful even with the Kafirs, on the other hand, on the JD He will only be loving and merciful with those who deserved to be dealt with as such, i.e. they believed in Him

Nicolei wrote:
God is perfect and cannot make any mistakes


Agree


Nicolei wrote:
God is infinitely good, righteous and just.


Agree

Nicolei wrote:
God cannot improve - for that will mean that God was not so good, perfect. righteous etc at some time in the past.


I disagree, because when God improves something, it is not because that He was not good, rather it may mean that it was not the right time for the creatures to accept something at full scale, so it was presented to them in doses that will indeed IMPROVE THEM and not improve Him

Nicolei wrote:
God is omnipotent - all powerful. No one can put any limit on him,


Agree


Nicolei wrote:
however God is limited by who he is. This means that God cannot be "not God".


This is a silly statemnet and Ii have to dismiss it, it makes no sense

Nicolei wrote:
This means that he cannot act in any way that negates or contradicts his attributeus.


Well, you will need to list a COMPLETE LIST of His attributes then we can discscuss one after the other and see if He contradicted any attribute of His


Nicolei wrote:
This means that God is consistently good, just, holy etc.


Repitition is also dismissed

Nicolei wrote:
This question may bring out what I mean that God is limited by himself: If God is so powerful and all knowing, can God then tie a knot so complicated that God himself cannot untie?


Athiesm thought and crap will be dismissed

on the other hand, there should be no need for God to do such thing, because there is nothing that is complicated to Him, maybe to His creatures the knot is complicated but with God, nothing is complicated, therefore the above atheist crap is dismissed


Nicolei wrote:
If God is indeed able to do everything and there are no limits for him, then he should be able to tie such a not. But by doing so God will negate himself and made himself "not God"


Dismissed

Nicolei wrote:
God is omniscient - all knowing. (Humans are finite so they will not be able to understanding everything.


Exactly, that is why the God must take it slowly with us to improve our abilities to understand Him

Nicolei wrote:
We believe our scriptures give/reveal sufficient answers, but not exhaustive comleteruote


who is "Our"?

on the other hand, I say that the Quran has given the believers in it complete answers to who the God is and it complies with annything that I agreed upon, above

Nicolei wrote:
God is omnipresent - he is/ can be everywhere. [/b]


Well, He can be anywhere, if the whole (WHERE) is too small compared to Him, i.e. it is quite possible that the whole universe with all its galaxies is too small that the God can hold the whole thing between His hands, and under this way of thinking, I agree that God is everywhere

Nicolei wrote:
I look forward to your contributions and your views.


Please be aware that I'm in Cairo right now, and my replies won't be quick

Cheers
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:19 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Nicolei of FFI replied as follow:

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Nicolei wrote:
God is eternal and has no beginning or end.

i disagree slightly
I say, God is the beginning and the end


I meant it as that where God himself is concerned, there was not a time when he did not exist and neither will there be a time where he will not exist. Yes he would be the beginning for all of his creation. That's why it is appropriate to start with God.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Nicolei wrote:
He is his own reference point and he is the reference point for all of creation.


Not sure what you mean that He is a reference point?


God is the ultimate reference point for meaning of all life. Example. God is the moral God and the moral law giver. If a the moral God do not exists then all morals are meaningless there will be no such thing as morals, good and evil. WE know good and evil because God gave us a standard. While God is our moral compass, God's own character and who he is, is his own reference point - he refers to no one.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


Nicolei wrote:
God cannot improve - for that will mean that God was not so good, perfect. righteous etc at some time in the past.


I disagree, because when God improves something, it is not because that He was not good, rather it may mean that it was not the right time for the creatures to accept something at full scale, so it was presented to them in doses that will indeed IMPROVE THEM and not improve Him.


Sorry, I should be more specific. Yes God can improve his creation. What I meant is that God cannot improve himself. He is infinitely good, infinitely holy. This means that at no time did God need to depend on anyone or anything to give meaning to his own existence. This is important to differentiate God from the pantheistic view that God is part of the universe and the universe is part of God. To put it crudely, God do not need to create the universe to be God. He is and was self sufficient and complete before creation..

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Nicolei wrote:
however God is limited by who he is. This means that God cannot be "not God".


This is a silly statemnet and Ii have to dismiss it, it makes no sense

Nicolei wrote:
This means that he cannot act in any way that negates or contradicts his attributeus.


Well, you will need to list a COMPLETE LIST of His attributes then we can discscuss one after the other and see if He contradicted any attribute of His


Nicolei wrote:
This means that God is consistently good, just, holy etc.


Repitition is also dismissed

Nicolei wrote:
This question may bring out what I mean that God is limited by himself: If God is so powerful and all knowing, can God then tie a knot so complicated that God himself cannot untie?


Athiesm thought and crap will be dismissed

on the other hand, there should be no need for God to do such thing, because there is nothing that is complicated to Him, maybe to His creatures the knot is complicated but with God, nothing is complicated, therefore the above atheist crap is dismissed


Nicolei wrote:
If God is indeed able to do everything and there are no limits for him, then he should be able to tie such a not. But by doing so God will negate himself and made himself "not God"


Dismissed


Simply put, If God is God, he would not say, worship anyone. If he did, he definitely cannot be God.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Nicolei wrote:
We believe our scriptures give/reveal sufficient answers, but not exhaustive comleteruote


who is "Our"?


It would be the Bible to me and the Koran to you.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

on the other hand, I say that the Quran has given the believers in it complete answers to who the God is and it complies with annything that I agreed upon, above


Sorry, I stand to be corrected. It is my view of the Bible. To me the Bible tells me sufficient things about YHVH and life, but not everything about YHVH and life. I was presumptuous where your views of the Koran is concerned.

O yes - One more thing I want to add - God is a personal God. ie he has feelings - he can get angry with sinful people. He can be pleased with his creation. The fact that we agreed the God is merciful, loving, compassionate actually covered it, but I just want to emphasize it to exclude any notion that God is just a principle, some kind of force, energy that does not "feel".

I will post post my evidences in in about 7 hours time.
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:20 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Salam Nicolei

I would like to add a quick comment that is not related to the subject of the debate rather related to the objective of this debate

You claimed that you will prove that the God of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible, and in this case you need to prove it 100%, i.e. 99% means that you failed

On the other hand, if we are starting with a fair propability concerning the possibilty that the God of the Bible being the same God of the Quran, then it should be 50:50

now what you need to do is to make it 100:0, where 100 equal to the Gods of the two scriptures are not the same, this is how you can only achieve the proof beyond an atom weight of doubt, if you can't make it 100:0 as you claimed then you would have considerd to have failed to make your point

for me however, if I manage to make the percentage anything else but more than 50:50 and less than 100:0, that the two Gods most likely are the same, for example, if I manage to make it 60:40, being 60 for the two Gods being the same and One God, then I would have then made my point

Please consider the above very seriously before you proceed, and if you have any objection please take the stand and express it

Cheers
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:22 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Nicolei of FFI replied as follow:

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam Nicolei
I would like to add a quick comment that is not related to the subject of the debate rather related to the objective of this debate

You claimed that you will prove that the God of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible, and in this case you need to prove it 100%, i.e. 99% means that you failed

On the other hand, if we are starting with a fair propability concerning the possibilty that the God of the Bible being the same God of the Quran, then it should be 50:50

now what you need to do is to make it 100:0, where 100 equal to the Gods of the two scriptures are not the same, this is how you can only achieve the proof beyond an atom weight of doubt, if you can't make it 100:0 as you claimed then you would have considerd to have failed to make your point

for me however, if I manage to make the percentage anything else but more than 50:50 and less than 100:0, that the two Gods most likely are the same, for example, if I manage to make it 60:40, being 60 for the two Gods being the same and One God, then I would have then made my point

Please consider the above very seriously before you proceed, and if you have any objection please take the stand and express it

Cheers


And peace be unto you AhmedBahgat,

I have to disagree.

The very fact that we have agreed to so many presuppositions concerning God already means that from the Koran you will have many verses to show that Allah is consistent to those presuppositions and I likewise will have many verses from the Bible to show that YHVH is consistent to those presuppositions. So there is no way to prove 100% as you put it.

If 100% is the standard of proof for me to believe in my YHVH, there will be no way I (or you for that matter) can say that the Satanists are wrong to say that God is actually Satan since Satan have supernatural powers (though we presuppose not 100%) like God. The Bible also says that Satan came disguise himself as an angel of light.

Second thing is that there is no way to measure holiness, goodness and the attributes of God. How much, big or heavy is 100% goodness, holiness, love, mercy? This is the argument I use to tell people who do not believe in God because they say that there is no �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??scientific�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� proof of God�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s existence. I ask them that if that is their belief, then since there is no scientific way to measure love, (is love measured in length, weight, volume or pressure? How much is 1 c.c. of love, How tall is God?? What instrument can measure love or God? Is it not measured by the heart and mind and seen in human relationships and creation?) they must also believe that their love for their parents, spouse and children do not exist.

Having said that, I would look silly if I simply say that the God of the Koran is called by a different name from the God of the Bible is proof enough that they are not the same God. You may or may not have read thoroughly the evidence that I had posted in other threads, but I intend to compare some aspects of the nature of YHVH with Allah and propose that these differences in nature are important enough to show that they cannot be the same God. Again that will my point of view and you may not accept it as reasonable proof. Of course since we are dealing with subjective topics as attributes and nature, the idea of 100% proof is well - subjective.

Both of us are very well entrenched in our positions. Just like you are Koran only and no hadiths, which goes against the majority of Muslims, I am very likely a minority who go against the mainstream Churches whose leaders seem to accept that Allah and YHVH are the same God.
So I accept that my standard of proof may not be acceptable to you and vice versa. So that means when I say that that is proof, it really means proof from my perspective. In one sense the readers of this forum will be their own judge.

In the end I know I will learn much from you. Whether what I learn will change my entrenched position and mind is yet to be known. But I am sure the God whoever he is will be pleased that we both want to understand more about him.

I hope your time in Cairo was good.
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:24 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Salam Nicolei

I would like to add a quick comment that is not related to the subject of the debate rather related to the objective of this debate

You claimed that you will prove that the God of the Quran cannot be the God of the Bible, and in this case you need to prove it 100%, i.e. 99% means that you failed

On the other hand, if we are starting with a fair propability concerning the possibilty that the God of the Bible being the same God of the Quran, then it should be 50:50

now what you need to do is to make it 100:0, where 100 equal to the Gods of the two scriptures are not the same, this is how you can only achieve the proof beyond an atom weight of doubt, if you can't make it 100:0 as you claimed then you would have considerd to have failed to make your point

for me however, if I manage to make the percentage anything else but more than 50:50 and less than 100:0, that the two Gods most likely are the same, for example, if I manage to make it 60:40, being 60 for the two Gods being the same and One God, then I would have then made my point

Please consider the above very seriously before you proceed, and if you have any objection please take the stand and express it

Cheers


Nicolei wrote:
And peace be unto you AhmedBahgat,


Salam Nicolei


Sorry for the delay, I'm actually in London right now and do not know yet how long I will stay here, hope it won't be that long as I already missed Australia and my family and my day to day life in there big deal, I feel home sick already

Nicolei wrote:
I have to disagree.


Sure, I guess a Muslim and a Christian may diagree in many issues

Nicolei wrote:
The very fact that we have agreed to so many presuppositions concerning God already means that from the Koran you will have many verses to show that Allah is consistent to those presuppositions and I likewise will have many verses from the Bible to show that YHVH is consistent to those presuppositions.


and this should be stregthing my argument that my proposition that two Gods are most likely the same one, as well it should weaken your proposition that the two gods can never be the same one


Nicolei wrote:
So there is no way to prove 100% as you put it.


I agree that I won't be able to prove my proposition beyond an atom weight of doubt

But your proposition that you will prove it beyond an atom weight of doubt, or would you like to change your proposition now to be "Most likely the two gods are not the same god?"

Nicolei wrote:
If 100% is the standard of proof for me to believe in my YHVH, there will be no way I (or you for that matter) can say that the Satanists are wrong to say that God is actually Satan since Satan have supernatural powers (though we presuppose not 100%) like God.



Can you please list those Satanic supernatural power and we should see how close that can be to the superiorty of the one and only God

Nicolei wrote:
The Bible also says that Satan came disguise himself as an angel of light.


if you consder that as supernatural (which I do not), still it is nothing compared to the superiority of the One and Only God and what He can do

Nicolei wrote:
Second thing is that there is no way to measure holiness, goodness and the attributes of God.


There is a way of measurintg it by referring to the scriptures that He suppose to have sent and in it, He speaks about Himself and explains His holiness, goodness and attributes


Nicolei wrote:
How much, big or heavy is 100% goodness, holiness, love, mercy?



For me, the one and only God must posses full scale of any attribute, even the ones that sounds harsh, like revenge for example

Nicolei wrote:
This is the argument I use to tell people who do not believe in God because they say that there is no �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??scientific�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� proof of God�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s existence.


The existance of God can not be proved scientifcally, this is part of the plan of God because if proven then all people must be believers and assufred that God exists which is not the case as we see it now days and in the past and will stay as such in the future and until the JD

Nicolei wrote:
I ask them that if that is their belief, then since there is no scientific way to measure love, (is love measured in length, weight, volume or pressure? How much is 1 c.c. of love, How tall is God?? What instrument can measure love or God? Is it not measured by the heart and mind and seen in human relationships and creation?) they must also believe that their love for their parents, spouse and children do not exist.


I tend to avide any phlisophical thoughts when it comes to the God, for me I just take it that any attribute of God must overweight any other atribute by any of His creatures, He must posses all these attributes at full scale, a scale that can even go beond the imagination of His creatures

Nicolei wrote:
Having said that, I would look silly if I simply say that the God of the Koran is called by a different name from the God of the Bible is proof enough that they are not the same God.


Actullally I believe that Allah = Elohim, sorry if I typed it wrong, but I read some work by others and they convinced me that the two names are the same but in differnt languages

Nicolei wrote:
You may or may not have read thoroughly the evidence that I had posted in other threads, but I intend to compare some aspects of the nature of YHVH with Allah and propose that these differences in nature are important enough to show that they cannot be the same God.


Please do on this thread (No masses please)


Nicolei wrote:
Again that will my point of view and you may not accept it as reasonable proof. Of course since we are dealing with subjective topics as attributes and nature, the idea of 100% proof is well - subjective.


But you are the one who claimed that you will prove it beyond any doubt, or would you like to rephrase your proposal that the evidences you will provide imply that the two gods may not be the same?

Nicolei wrote:
Both of us are very well entrenched in our positions. Just like you are Koran only and no hadiths,


Please, do not repeat the ignoraqnce and confusion by many goons in here, I'm not a Quran only Muslim, I only use the Quran in my religious discussions with the kafirs, I actually use the hadith in my religions discussions with the hadith worshippers, simply I'm a hadith listener but I'm not a hadith worshipper.

Nicolei wrote:
which goes against the majority of Muslims,


Well, The Quran clearly said the Most those who believe in Allah, do it while they are polytheists, therefore my stand is most likely truthful that their stand, also popularity does not make things right

Nicolei wrote:
I am very likely a minority who go against the mainstream Churches whose leaders seem to accept that Allah and YHVH are the same God.


That is why the onus is on you to prove them wrong, exactly as I'm doing with the hadith worshippers

Nicolei wrote:
So I accept that my standard of proof may not be acceptable to you and vice versa.


Look, I will accept any logical argument presented, I'm not an arrogant type of guy, despite I look like it


Nicolei wrote:
So that means when I say that that is proof, it really means proof from my perspective. In one sense the readers of this forum will be their own judge.


well, that is if you present argumets from your mind not from scriptures, on the other hand when I fight the confused Muslims I only presnet argumnet from their books (Quran and hadith), nothing from my mind, (I spend a week in cairo fighting them until I lost my voice, in fact every time I visit Cairo I have to lose my voice due to the intense discussions I go through with all those confused Muslims including family and friends, my passion to the subject of my religion is way too much that it is has a great toll already on what I should be doing in this life, in fact my first priority in this life has become orieneted in saving as many as I can from my fellow Muslims, I'm happy that many has started to listen to me and even support me despite at the beginning was classified 100% wrong by many of them, they even told me that they will prove me wrong, they never did and I never budged off m y position because they never presnted a valid argument, all their crap was replied and refuted by me, that is why many started to think again about their opposition to my message that is only based on the Quran and their hadith

Nicolei wrote:
In the end I know I will learn much from you. Whether what I learn will change my entrenched position and mind is yet to be known. But I am sure the God whoever he is will be pleased that we both want to understand more about him.

I hope your time in Cairo was good.


Likewise, thank you

cheers
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:25 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Nicolei of FFI replied as follow:

Peace AhmedBahgat,

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Sorry for the delay, I'm actually in London right now and do not yet how long I will stay here, hope it won't be that long as I already missed Australia and my family and my day to day life in there big deals, I feel home sick already


No apologies required, we have agreed that there would not be any time limit for replies. I will be absent from FFI from Friday till next week and I am now preparing for the trip, so I am also busy myself and will not be posting so frequently.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

But your proposition that you will prove it beyond an atom weight of doubt, or would you like to change your proposition now to be "Most likely the two gods are not the same god?"


You are right, I do sound pompous and presumptuous to think that the general readers and you would see it from my perspective (being a Christian) as beyond any shadow of doubt. I think "beyond reasonable doubts" which would be closer to your suggestion.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Can you please list those Satanic supernatural power and we should see how close that can be to the superiorty of the one and only God


From our perspective as believers in a holy God, naturally our presuppositions about Satan would be that he is invisible and can be in many places, take on any forms to carry out his evil deceit. From the occult practitioners' perspective, Satan is has tremendous power and naturally they would see God as a rival. Other pagan religions also claim their gods to have many of the attributes of the God that we believe in, but that does not mean that the mean that their gods are the same YHVH or Allah should they make such a claim. From the pagans perspective, theirs is the true religion.


AhmedBahgat wrote:

Nicolei wrote:
Again that will my point of view and you may not accept it as reasonable proof. Of course since we are dealing with subjective topics as attributes and nature, the idea of 100% proof is well - subjective.


But you are the one who claimed that you will prove it beyond any doubt, or would you like to rephrase your proposal that the evidences you will provide imply that the two gods may not be the same?


Yes I would like to rephrase it (although from my personal perspective, I see it as absolute proof) but that would be presumptuous to expect others to see it that way. I believe "beyond reasonable doubts" would be, well, reasonable.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Please, do not repeat the ignoraqnce and confusion by many goons in here, I'm not a Quran only Muslim, I only use the Quran in my religious discussions with the kafirs, I actually use the hadith in my religions discussions with the hadith worshippers, simply I'm a hadith listener but I'm not a hadith worshipper.


Not that it is relevant, but more to side- track a bit. Are you familiar with the works of the Malaysian Muslim by the name of Kassim Ahmad?

Here's an excerpt from his weblog
Quote:

http://kassimahmad.blogspot.com/2005/06/why-row-over-anti-hadith-but-silence.html

In 1986, I published a book, Hadis - Satu Penilaian Semula (Prophetic Traditions - A Re-Evaluation) with the above stated intention, that is, to let the people know more of about the Quran. Many of the hadith compiled by Bukhari, Muslim and others that we use today, according to my study, are in conflict with the teachings of the Quran. I will cite three examples.


Kassim Ahmad was censured by the Malaysian Muslim authorities. His book -Prophetic Traditions - A Re-Evaluation was banned in Malaysia. But in case you are interested, it can read from this Islamic website:
http://www.quran.org/library/articles/ahmad0.htm

The other Muslim that I am impressed with is Mahmoud Taha of Sudan, who has been called the "Islamic Gandhi" for his very simple and humble lifestyle. His works have influenced some "moderate" Muslims that I have personally met . Unfortunately they executed Mahmoud Taha on charges of heresy/apostasy.

Anyway I have digressed.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Nicolei wrote:
I am very likely a minority who go against the mainstream Churches whose leaders seem to accept that Allah and YHVH are the same God.


That is why the onus is on you to prove them wrong, exactly as I'm doing with the hadith worshippers


Looks like I have a tough task ahead.

AhmedBahgat wrote:


well, that is if you present argumets from your mind not from scriptures, on the other hand when I fight the confused Muslims I only presnet argumnet from their books (Quran and hadith), nothing from my mind, (I spend a week in cairo fighting them until I lost my voice, in fact every time I visit Cairo I have to lose my voice due to the intense discussions I go through with all those confused Muslims including family and friends, my passion to the subject of my religion is way too much that it is has a great toll already on what I should be doing in this life, in fact my first priority in this life has become orieneted in saving as many as I can from my fellow Muslims, I'm happy that many has started to listen to me and even support me despite at the beginning was classified 100% wrong by many of them, they even told me that they will prove me wrong, they never did and I never budged off m y position because they never presnted a valid argument, all their crap was replied and refuted by me, that is why many started to think again about their opposition to my message that is only based on the Quran and their hadith


You do sound like Kassim Ahmad.

I hope to present my evidence before I leave this weekend. If not It should be out by end of next week.

Pax vabiscum
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Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:29 am
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Nicolei wrote:
Peace AhmedBahgat,


Salam Nicolei

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Sorry for the delay, I'm actually in London right now and do not yet how long I will stay here, hope it won't be that long as I already missed Australia and my family and my day to day life in there big deals, I feel home sick already


Nicolei wrote:
No apologies required, we have agreed that there would not be any time limit for replies. I will be absent from FFI from Friday till next week and I am now preparing for the trip, so I am also busy myself and will not be posting so frequently.


Hope you will have a good trip

AhmedBahgat wrote:

But your proposition that you will prove it beyond an atom weight of doubt, or would you like to change your proposition now to be "Most likely the two gods are not the same god?"


Nicolei wrote:
You are right, I do sound pompous and presumptuous to think that the general readers and you would see it from my perspective (being a Christian) as beyond any shadow of doubt. I think "beyond reasonable doubts" which would be closer to your suggestion.


The problem here is how we define reasonable?, see, it still relative based on everyone perspective, I see it like this:

Everyone has the right to believe in whatever, this does not make 'whatever' right, until proven right, now, with the issue of who is the God, this can never be proven in this life, it will only be proven at the moment of death for each one of us, therefore, in this debate, none of us can prove the point rather presenting logic to strengthen each one of us proposal, yet anyone of us may be wrong, and even both of us may be wrong

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Can you please list those Satanic supernatural power and we should see how close that can be to the superiorty of the one and only God


Nicolei wrote:
From our perspective as believers in a holy God, naturally our presuppositions about Satan would be that he is invisible and can be in many places,


Well, the air is also in many places , that does not make the air similar to God, for Satan, we can't know if he is in many places, or he is in one place and just have many of his progeny working for him in many places, I lean to believe the second, that he has many of his progeny in many places working for him, sort of spreading his deceit

Nicolei wrote:
take on any forms to carry out his evil deceit.


or many of his progeny doing it for him

Nicolei wrote:
From the occult practitioners' perspective, Satan is has tremendous power and naturally they would see God as a rival.



I do not believe that Satan and his progeny see God as a rival, I believe that they only see the humans as their only rivals

Nicolei wrote:
Other pagan religions also claim their gods to have many of the attributes of the God that we believe in, but that does not mean that the mean that their gods are the same YHVH or Allah should they make such a claim. From the pagans perspective, theirs is the true religion.


That is if all of us disagree that there is only one God, however if we all agree that there is only one God then the similarties between all these religions add weight to the proposal that we all agreed on, that there is only one God


AhmedBahgat wrote:
But you are the one who claimed that you will prove it beyond any doubt, or would you like to rephrase your proposal that the evidences you will provide imply that the two gods may not be the same?


Nicolei wrote:
Yes I would like to rephrase it (although from my personal perspective, I see it as absolute proof) but that would be presumptuous to expect others to see it that way. I believe "beyond reasonable doubts" would be, well, reasonable.


Fine with me, however even if it is beyond reasonable doubt, it will still be doubtful to a degree

AhmedBahgat wrote:

Please, do not repeat the ignoraqnce and confusion by many goons in here, I'm not a Quran only Muslim, I only use the Quran in my religious discussions with the kafirs, I actually use the hadith in my religions discussions with the hadith worshippers, simply I'm a hadith listener but I'm not a hadith worshipper.


Nicolei wrote:
Not that it is relevant, but more to side- track a bit. Are you familiar with the works of the Malaysian Muslim by the name of Kassim Ahmad?


I think I read some of his work a couple of years ago

Nicolei wrote:

Here's an excerpt from his weblog
Quote:

http://kassimahmad.blogspot.com/2005/06/why-row-over-anti-hadith-but-silence.html

In 1986, I published a book, Hadis - Satu Penilaian Semula (Prophetic Traditions - A Re-Evaluation) with the above stated intention, that is, to let the people know more of about the Quran. Many of the hadith compiled by Bukhari, Muslim and others that we use today, according to my study, are in conflict with the teachings of the Quran. I will cite three examples.


I agree totally with what he said

Nicolei wrote:
Kassim Ahmad was censured by the Malaysian Muslim authorities. His book -Prophetic Traditions - A Re-Evaluation was banned in Malaysia. But in case you are interested, it can read from this Islamic website:
http://www.quran.org/library/articles/ahmad0.htm


Of course they have to sensor him, this is because they are clear cut Mushrikoon who can not handle the truth of being brainwashed for bloody 1200 years

Nicolei wrote:
The other Muslim that I am impressed with is Mahmoud Taha of Sudan, who has been called the "Islamic Gandhi" for his very simple and humble lifestyle. His works have influenced some "moderate" Muslims that I have personally met . Unfortunately they executed Mahmoud Taha on charges of heresy/apostasy.


I never heard about him, but I do understand that someone like him must have been atacked bad by Al Mushrikoon, I really hope that he was a true Muslim who submitted only to Allah

Anyway I have digressed.

AhmedBahgat wrote:

That is why the onus is on you to prove them wrong, exactly as I'm doing with the hadith worshippers


Nicolei wrote:
Looks like I have a tough task ahead.



I will be tough for both of us to prove his proposal 100%, it is all about belief and logically speaking, belief can not be proven, and if it is proven then it can't be belief anymore rather a fact that no one can dispute

AhmedBahgat wrote:

well, that is if you present argumets from your mind not from scriptures, on the other hand when I fight the confused Muslims I only presnet argumnet from their books (Quran and hadith), nothing from my mind, (I spend a week in cairo fighting them until I lost my voice, in fact every time I visit Cairo I have to lose my voice due to the intense discussions I go through with all those confused Muslims including family and friends, my passion to the subject of my religion is way too much that it is has a great toll already on what I should be doing in this life, in fact my first priority in this life has become orieneted in saving as many as I can from my fellow Muslims, I'm happy that many has started to listen to me and even support me despite at the beginning was classified 100% wrong by many of them, they even told me that they will prove me wrong, they never did and I never budged off m y position because they never presnted a valid argument, all their crap was replied and refuted by me, that is why many started to think again about their opposition to my message that is only based on the Quran and their hadith


Nicolei wrote:
You do sound like Kassim Ahmad.


and many other Muslims who only submit to Allah alone

Nicolei wrote:

I hope to present my evidence before I leave this weekend. If not It should be out by end of next week.

Pax vabiscum


Take your time, no rush whatsoever

Salam
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Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:30 am
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Nicolei of FFI replied as follow:

Salam, AhmedBahgat,

First, please accept my apologies for not posting at least two weeks ago. There were some unexpected events including a funeral that came up and I could not meet my obligations here.

I hope your time in Cairo and in London was fruitful and fair dinkum.

So here it is.

Proof that Allah of the Koran is not the same God as YHVH of the Bible.
Evidences from the Bible and the Koran

Note: all the Bible verses I quoted here were taken from the New International Version Bible (NIV) from this website http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31#booklist
which also has other versions.

The Koran verses are taken from the University of Southern California - Muslim society of America, University of Southern California website at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/

When God speaks, what he said are true and can be trusted and are important as it is already even when he does not swears or make an oath to emphasize the importance of what he had to say. So when God swears or make an oath, what he swears is even more important. What God say will reveal his nature and character. What God swears by will reveal even more of God's character and nature. Basically the evidences show that the manner that YHVH swears is different from the way Allah swears and so it reveals that the character of YHVH is fundamentally different from Allah and therefore they cannot be the same God.

Evidences from the Bible

Quote:
and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, - Genesis 22:16


Here we see that the God of the Bible swearing by himself to Abraham.

Quote:
But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' " �?????�????�???�??�?�¢?? Jeremiah 22:5


Here we see again that the God of the Bible swearing by himself.

Quote:
Hebrews 6:13-16
The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants." 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.


Here the Hebrews writer reiterated that since there was no one greater than the God of the Bible, the God of the Bible logically swore by himself when he made his promise to Abraham. Verse 16 gave the rationale that a person will swear by something or someone greater than him or herself.

So YHVH by swearing by himself is saying that He is the ultimate point of reference and no one is greater than Himself and He is staking his reputation as God that He will fulfill what he swore to Abraham.

Now we look at how Allah swears

Evidences from the Koran.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/053.qmt.html

053.001
YUSUFALI: By the Star when it goes down,-
PICKTHAL: By the Star when it setteth,
SHAKIR: I swear by the star when it goes down.

Quote:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/056.qmt.html
056.075
YUSUFALI: Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/074.qmt.html
074.032
YUSUFALI: Nay, verily: By the Moon,
PICKTHAL: Nay, by the Moon
SHAKIR: Nay; I swear by the moon,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/091.qmt.html
091.001
YUSUFALI: By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
PICKTHAL: By the sun and his brightness,
SHAKIR: I swear by the sun and its brilliance,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/090.qmt.html
090.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness this City;-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by this city -
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by this city.


Theses are just some examples of how Allah swears, There are many more from the Koran.

From the above verses in the Koran we see that Allah does not swear by himself who is supposed to be the almighty creator and worthy of all honors. All of creation are to honor Allah who is the greatest.

Instead Allah had implied that the stars, the moon, and the sun are greater than Allah - the very things Allah are supposed to have created. He even swore by a man-made city!!!!

God is almighty, Creator of all things and is the reference point for all of life. The Bible says that YHVH swore by himself because no one is greater than YHVH. If Allah is the same as the God of the Bible then Allah would have sworn not by his creation, but by himself as YHVH did.
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:32 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Nicolei wrote:
Salam, AhmedBahgat,


Salam Nicolei

Nicolei wrote:
First, please accept my apologies for not posting at least two weeks ago. There were some unexpected events including a funeral that came up and I could not meet my obligations here.


No apologies required, both of us have agreed that there will be no time limit, this means, any of us may take his time to reply. Possibly in a day or two, or even in a year or two

Nicolei wrote:
I hope your time in Cairo and in London was fruitful and fair dinkum


Thanks for the good wishes, I have been to Oslo as well, it�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s great to see different locations and cultures (scattered on earth) in a short period of time, it�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s an amazing experience I have to tell you

Nicolei wrote:
So here it is.

Proof that Allah of the Koran is not the same God as YHVH of the Bible.
Evidences from the Bible and the Koran

Note: all the Bible verses I quoted here were taken from the New International Version Bible (NIV) from this website http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=31#booklist
which also has other versions.

The Koran verses are taken from the University of Southern California - Muslim society of America, University of Southern California website at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/


Great, however, I will not accept that the three Quran translations in the above link to be held as solid evidences, this is because I read all three translations more than once and discovered many errors by all three translators, ironically many of these errors could have not been committed by a native Arabic speaker, therefore, I have to conclude that all the three translations in your link are flawed, this means that, I have to accept the translation of any verse from those three translations as sound before your evidences from it will be admissible, now, if I present an alternative translation to any specific verse then you too must accept it first before it will be admissible, fair enough I have to say, would you agree?

Nicolei wrote:
When God speaks, what he said are true and can be trusted and are important as it is already even when he does not swears or make an oath to emphasize the importance of what he had to say.


I disagree, this is because it is not about importance at all, it is all about greatness and might in His creation, now, you have to understand a very important part of this test in this life that is suppose to be by the same God, this important part of His plan is very logical to understand:

See, when we are born, we know nothing, in fact non of us can even remember what exactly happened in the day we were born , in fact almost in the first few years even, (I can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t remember anything myself up to 4 years old), then gradually and very slowly we start picking knowledge, even knowledge that are not told to any one of us by anyone, for example, like seeing the sun everyday, or seeing the moon, or seeing people being born, or seeing the day and night every day, there are thousands of examples, all these examples share one aspect, they all seem to be the work of nature (of course when we are so young ,like 1,2,4,5,6,7,�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�¦.. years old we never think about the possibility that all these things are created by the One God), therefore, we may be tricked into believing as such (being caused by nature), all of us as we grow slowly day by day may be vulnerable to believe as such, in fact me and you as God believers, can see many others who fell in such difficult trick, imagine that we are born all of a sudden at the age of 40 years old, we will just look around us and say, how the hell all these miracles are happening, surely it must look to us as mighty and great acts that are controlled by someone who must have great power to do it. and this is why I disagree with what you said, because the God will be helping us to overcome such illusion that is part of this tough test as we are programmed since we were born, day by day that all such things are acts of natures, I say swearing by such miracles to confirm the greatness behind its creation is a great help from the One God through this tough test that He forced all of us to take it.

Nicolei wrote:
So when God swears or make an oath, what he swears is even more important.


I have to dismiss your logic, again, it is not about highlighting any importance, RATHAR HIGHLIGHTING THE GREATNESS BEHIND ITS CREATION

Nicolei wrote:
What God say will reveal his nature and character. What God swears by will reveal even more of God's character and nature. Basically the evidences show that the manner that YHVH swears is different from the way Allah swears and so it reveals that the character of YHVH is fundamentally different from Allah and therefore they cannot be the same God.


Well, you are setting up a very weak and flawed argument, because even if I agree (not yet), that the way both sweared in the corresponding book are different, there are still many other similarities, therefore, instead of wasting our time on conclusive differences, it is better that you refute any similarities, unless you claim that there is absolutely no similarities then I will take it from there when it happens, now, if you remember well that I told you that you need to make it 100:0 that they are not the same, any other percentage beyond this means that you failed to make your case, also remember that I never claimed that both gods are the same 100%, for me I will even consider the 1% possibility that they are the same and make up my decisions based on that.

Nicolei wrote:
Evidences from the Bible

Quote:
and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, - Genesis 22:16


Here we see that the God of the Bible swearing by himself to Abraham.


And I accept the above passage by you, the Quran on the other hand, highlighted that when humans should make a swear �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Qasam�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� in Arabic, then it can only be said �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??by Allah�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?�, the Quran never told us to swear by the moon or the sun, as well, the Quran is showing us the One God highlighting the greatness of the creation of such creatures, I.E. The One God is highlighting His Own greatness when He swears by these creatures because these creatures came to existence and are maintained by His great power ONLY

This means that I have to dismiss your whole argument about swearing, it holds no water, in fact the swearing by Him alone in the Bible is not contradicting what He said in the Quran, it is only part of it, the Quran orders the humans to swear by God alone which covers the passage in the Bible that you brought on the table, as well, the Quran added further information regarding swearing which is, the God is highlighting the greatness of the creation of some creations by swearing by them which indirectly means, swearing by His own greatness because He is the Only One Who created and maintaining all such great creations.

Nicolei wrote:
Quote:
But if you do not obey these commands, declares the LORD, I swear by myself that this palace will become a ruin.' " �?????�????�???�??�?�¢?? Jeremiah 22:5


Here we see again that the God of the Bible swearing by himself.


And that�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s it from your Bible, ONLY TWO TIMES THE GOD SWEARS BY HIMSELF, I challenge you to show me more than these two, while on the other hand your Bible is high on virgins, prostitutes and wine

If we look at the Quran (in addition to ordering us to swear by the God alone), it showed us NUMEROUS times the God is swearing by many mighty creations that He Himself created and is maintaining , therefore the Quran is more elaborate to the greatness of the God than the Bible, no question about this conclusive conclusion

Sorry mate, for the next part of your comment, I have no other option but to dismiss it because as I stated above, you are wrong in two points:

1) Assuming that swearing by His creation implies importance while it implies greatness

2) Your Bible only showed us TWO times the God swears by Himself, while the Quran orders us to swear by the God alone as well showed us NUMEROUS times the God is swearing by many of His mighty creations, which means swearing by His own greatness because such mighty creations are only created and maintained by Him

Now, when we compare the two times of the Bibles and the many times in the Quran, it means that the Quran is more elaborate in highlighting the greatness of Our One and Only Creator

Nicolei wrote:
Quote:
Hebrews 6:13-16
The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants." 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised.
16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument.


Here the Hebrews writer reiterated that since there was no one greater than the God of the Bible, the God of the Bible logically swore by himself when he made his promise to Abraham. Verse 16 gave the rationale that a person will swear by something or someone greater than him or herself.

So YHVH by swearing by himself is saying that He is the ultimate point of reference and no one is greater than Himself and He is staking his reputation as God that He will fulfill what he swore to Abraham.
[/quote]

Dismissed, sorry

Nicolei wrote:
Now we look at how Allah swears

Evidences from the Koran.


http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/053.qmt.html

053.001
YUSUFALI: By the Star when it goes down,-
PICKTHAL: By the Star when it setteth,
SHAKIR: I swear by the star when it goes down.



And who made the stars to act in such great way?

The One and only God, i.e. the verse above is highlighting the greatness of the creation of the stars, which means highlighting the greatness of the Creator, indeed, far more elaborate than the two times of the Bible where the God swears by Himself

Nicolei wrote:

Quote:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/056.qmt.html
056.075
YUSUFALI: Furthermore I call to witness the setting of the Stars,-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by the places of the stars -
SHAKIR: But nay! I swear by the falling of stars;
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/074.qmt.html
074.032
YUSUFALI: Nay, verily: By the Moon,
PICKTHAL: Nay, by the Moon
SHAKIR: Nay; I swear by the moon,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/091.qmt.html
091.001
YUSUFALI: By the Sun and his (glorious) splendour;
PICKTHAL: By the sun and his brightness,
SHAKIR: I swear by the sun and its brilliance,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/090.qmt.html
090.001
YUSUFALI: I do call to witness this City;-
PICKTHAL: Nay, I swear by this city -
SHAKIR: Nay! I swear by this city.


And who created all the above mighty creations and made it all to act in such great way?

The One and only God, i.e. the verse above is highlighting the greatness of the creation of the stars, which means highlighting the Greatness of the Creator, indeed, far more elaborate than the two times of the Bible where the God swears by Himself

Nicolei wrote:
Theses are just some examples of how Allah swears, There are many more from the Koran.


Of course there are many many more, this is because what you are missing and confused about, the fact that the Quran is far more elaborate in showing us the greatness of Our Creator, things that may look normal to us and have been indeed normal for many many years as we grew up from the day we have been born

Unfortunately for you the more we find �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??swearing by some great creations�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?�?????�????�???�??�?� verses in the Quran, the more the Quran looks superior and more elaborate than the Bible in proving the greatness of our One and Only God

Nicolei wrote:
From the above verses in the Koran we see that Allah does not swear by himself who is supposed to be the almighty creator and worthy of all honors. All of creation are to honor Allah who is the greatest.


Well, when I get my searching engine working I will show you that we are ordered to swear by Him, He on the other hand sweared by mighty creations that He only created, in effect He is using their greatness in creation to highlight His own and unique greatness in creating

You are talking as if we are told to swear by these creations, if true then you are damn confused,

Let me put it to you in a simple way, hopefully you as a so called believer in God, comprehend it:

If there is a real and One God, who created all that including us, then HE CAN NOT BE QUESTIONED TO WHAT HE DOES OR IN WHAT HE SAYS. Do you agree?

Nicolei wrote:
Instead Allah had implied that the stars, the moon, and the sun are greater than Allah - the very things Allah are supposed to have created. He even swore by a man-made city!!!!


Holy non sense, it is only in your flawed logic that Allah is implying as such, for you the black is white and the white is black, it is like you bloody turns things 180 degrees to what it should be

Again, Allah is highlighting HIS OWN GREATNESS BECAUSE HOWEVER THESE CREATIONS ARE GREAT, THE ONE WHO CREATED AND MAINTAINING THEM MUST BE GREATER

Nicolei wrote:
God is almighty, Creator of all things and is the reference point for all of life. The Bible says that YHVH swore by himself because no one is greater than YHVH. If Allah is the same as the God of the Bible then Allah would have sworn not by his creation, but by himself as YHVH did.


Dismissed

Next argument

Cheers
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:34 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Hello Nicolei

I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m sorry that I have to break the rules that we have agreed upon, hope you are doing great first, the reason that I�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??m adding this comment without waiting for you to reply to my last comment is simply as follow:

I wanted to write this comment for about 2 days and never had time to do so because I'm away from home as you know, , if you remember that in my last comment where I replied to your argument where you said that swearing by other creatures or facts implies importance and I stated that it implies greatness. My reply was actually is what I thought of logically, it was never based on the Quran due to my possible ignorance to the verses of the Quran, a few days later while doing my day to day life in London, a couple of verses hit my head, AMAZINGLY the verses confirm what I stated in my last comment regarding such specific argument, let me bring the verses in here and walk you through it first:

75: But nay! I swear by the positions of the stars;

76: And indeed it is a great oath if you only knew;

[The Quran ; 56:75-76]

فَلَا أُقْسِمُ بِمَوَاقِعِ النُّجُومِ (75)
وَإِنَّهُ لَقَسَمٌ لَّوْ تَعْلَمُونَ عَظِيمٌ (76)

-> See, verse 56:75 is an example to what you are talking about, where we read that Allah swears by the positions of the stars: But nay! I swear by the positions of the stars;, obviously we see the stars in their positions in the sky every day since we are born, it has to look very natural to us, i.e. there is no greatness behind it, it is just nature, an automatic thingy, while the fact of the matter if we are born all of a sudden at 40 years old we will look around and wonder about all these positions of these numerous number of the stars. In the next verse 56:76 we read something very interesting, something about the oath by Allah: And indeed it is a great oath if you only knew; , SEE, that is exactly what I told you in my last comment, it is about GREATNESS and not about importance, can you see the word عَظِيمٌ , Azim, i.e. great that is describing the Qasam i.e. describing the oath, therefore the Quran confirmed what I alleged without prior knowledge that the Quran is supporting my argument against your argument, that is why I love such great book, it says what I logically understand and know about the one and only God. See how the verse said it: And indeed it is a great oath if you only knew;, obviously you did not know that, and to the contrary I knew it.

Now, what you need to do to counter my argument is show us where in the Bible that swearing by other creatures or facts, implies importance and not greatness !

Your argument holds no water because, if it implies importance then the two times the God swears by Himself in the Bible must mean that He is saying that He is important instead of saying that He is great

Cheers
Post Posted:
Thu 07 Aug, 2008 5:35 am
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