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Salam again brother The
Here is a good verse
And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die, for only the delivery of the message is (incumbent) on you, while calling (them) to account is Our (business). [The Quran ; 13:40]
-> See mate, the verse above is a message from Allah to Mohammad, Allah is telling Mohammad "وَإِن مَّا نُرِيَنَّكَ بَعْضَ الَّذِي نَعِدُهُمْ أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ",, i.e. "And We will either let you see part of what We threaten them with or cause you to die",
i.e. we have two possibilties:
1) Mohammad will see the punishment promised to the Kafiroon/Myshrikoon (i.e. Mohammad is alive)
2) Mohammd won't see it (i.e. Mohammad DIED), see how it was said in the verse "أَوْ نَتَوَفَّيَنَّكَ", "Aw Natawafainaka", "or cause you to die"
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Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Thanks bro but please don't use the FM technique
# fm technique? i am disappointed in u, bro! : disappointed :
lolz!
Quote:
Caused to fulfill HIS TERM OF LIFE i.e. Death
don't under stand what you say bro
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body
# u said tawaffa only means to cause or full....and in context of malakulmawt it means fulfill r life term...ur words?
right?
......u said "tawaffa" only means to cause or fulfill!
are v together so far? (-:
Quote:
so 32:11 is highliting the job of Malik Al Mawt, the Angel of Mawt Yatawfa us, i.e. cause us to fulfill our term of life, i.e. cause us to die and that is what Tawafa means
# when u throw in tawaffa along with mawt(39:42) or malakulmawt(32:11) then v can understand death looms.....right?
Quote:
for the Nafs on the JD it is exactly the same Towafi Kul Nafs, i.e. Kul Nafs will be caused to fulfil the punishment or the rwards of their deeds
# why not translate tuwaffa as "taking the soul back" or "death" or "life term fulfilled" there?
3:161 ....thumma tuwaffa kullu nafsin ma kasabat....
....then every soul shall have its soul taken back what it earned....
....then every soul shall be caused to die what it earned....
...then every soul shall have its life term fulfilled what it earned.....
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 12:26 am
The Rook
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# let us get thru with what "tawaffa" is, bro....in context of 32:11 and 39:42....then v ll see other verses...if u dunn mind! (-:
# take care...salam bro! (-:
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 12:32 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Thanks bro but please don't use the FM technique
The wrote:
# fm technique? i am disappointed in u, bro! : disappointed :
lolz!
Just kiddin bro
Quote:
Caused to fulfill HIS TERM OF LIFE i.e. Death
don't under stand what you say bro
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually i was mistaken, Tawafa is only mean to cause to fulfil, and in the context of Malik Al Mawt, it means to cause to fulfill our life term in this life, i.e. we will be sleep or dead after the soul has exited the body
The wrote:
# u said tawaffa only means to cause or full....and in context of malakulmawt it means fulfill r life term...ur words?
right?
In that verse yes however there are three entities the Quran told us that they will cause us to fulfill out term of life:
1) Allah
2) The Angel of death
3) Other Angels (I bevlieve those other Sngels work only for the Angel of death)
The wrote:
......u said "tawaffa" only means to cause or fulfill!
are v together so far? (-:
well if mentioned without what is to be fulfilled then it has to be the common meaning which is fulfilling the term of life, i.e. caused to die
Quote:
so 32:11 is highliting the job of Malik Al Mawt, the Angel of Mawt Yatawfa us, i.e. cause us to fulfill our term of life, i.e. cause us to die and that is what Tawafa means
The wrote:
# when u throw in tawaffa along with mawt(39:42) or malakulmawt(32:11) then v can understand death looms.....right?
Not only with Malik Al Mawt but:
1) Allah
2) Other Angels who work for the Angel of death
and that is only if what is caused to be fulfilled is ommitted
for example: Towafi Kul Nafis Ma Amalat, means all souls will be caused to fulfil the punishment or rewards for their deed, this is because Ma Amalat is mentioned, however if we say any of the following:
1) Alla Yatawafa kul Nafs
2) The angel of death Yatawafa humans
3) The Angels Yatawafoon humans
then it has to only means caused to fulfill the term of life, i.e. CAUSE THEM TO DIE
Quote:
for the Nafs on the JD it is exactly the same Towafi Kul Nafs, i.e. Kul Nafs will be caused to fulfil the punishment or the rwards of their deeds
The wrote:
# why not translate tuwaffa as "taking the soul back" or "death" or "life term fulfilled" there?
all three means DEATH indeed, as long as the soul is out of the body, if it was out for a few hours and the soul put back later in the body then it means sleep
Quote:
3:161 ....thumma tuwaffa kullu nafsin ma kasabat....
Quote:
....then every soul shall have its soul taken back what it earned....
Quote:
....then every soul shall be caused to die what it earned....
Quote:
...then every soul shall have its life term fulfilled what it earned.....
see how you confirmed my argument
in every verse of the above, what is to be fullfiled is mentioned THE DEEDS
if not mentioned, like Allah Yatawafa kul Nafs then it only means DEATH
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sat 10 Mar, 2007 12:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 12:38 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The wrote:
# let us get thru with what "tawaffa" is, bro....in context of 32:11 and 39:42....then v ll see other verses...if u dunn mind! (-:
# take care...salam bro! (-:
That what the whole discussion is about bro, I told you earlier I realy care less if Jesus died or not, I only care about the meaning of the word Tawafa
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Salam bro
just a quick note before I gor to bed
you said:
Quote:
# i dont get this bro...u have a clear verse in 39:42 which says that souls are first yatawaffa, and then death is decreed......i dont see why u want to read it as "caused to die"!
Bro but 39:42 says clearly that Allah Yatawafa Al Anfus HEENA Mawtiha
the word Heena bro means AT THAT TIME not after it or before it
i.e. Allah Yatawafa Al Anfus AT THE TIME OF ITS DEATH, i.e. the Anfus are caused to die
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sat 10 Mar, 2007 1:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 1:28 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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# hey bro...i tried to delete the post i put in as a guest....but u admins have all the rights... : angry : (-;
..so delete the post bro...cuz i m re-posting it! (-:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Just kiddin bro
# i know, buddy! : mr.-know-it-all :
Quote:
In that verse yes however there are three entities the Quran told us that they will cause us to fulfill out term of life:
1) Allah
# okayz!
Quote:
2) The Angel of death
# hmm...okay!
Quote:
3) Other Angels (I bevlieve those other Sngels work only for the Angel of death)
# i just wanna c what verse u have in mind....is it 8:50 or 46:27?
Quote:
well if mentioned without what is to be fulfilled then it has to be the common meaning which is fulfilling the term of life, i.e. caused to die
# the word comes from "wafa/fulfill"...do u disagree?
if not, then it's common or primary meaning would not involve death, instead of being the other way round! (-:
Quote:
Not only with Malik Al Mawt but:
1) Allah
2) Other Angels who work for the Angel of death
and that is only if what is caused to be fulfilled is ommitted
for example: Towafi Kul Nafis Ma Amalat, means all souls will be caused to fulfil the punishment or rewards for their deed, this is because Ma Amalat is mentioned, however if we say any of the following:
1) Alla Yatawafa kul Nafs
2) The angel of death Yatawafa humans
3) The Angels Yatawafoon humans
then it has to only means caused to fulfill the term of life, i.e. CAUSE THEM TO DIE
# i dont get this bro...u have a clear verse in 39:42 which says that souls are first yatawaffa, and then death is decreed......i dont see why u want to read it as "caused to die"!
Quote:
all three means DEATH indeed, as long as the soul is out of the body, if it was out for a few hours and the soul put back later in the body then it means sleep
# so u are saying when v are sleeping v are dead?
Quote:
see how you confirmed my argument
in every verse of the above, what is to be fullfiled is mentioned THE DEEDS
if not mentioned, like Allah Yatawafa kul Nafs then it only means DEATH
# like i said, the primary meaning of wafa is fulfill -- so to understand it as death u need some context -- and not the other way round! (-:
Quote:
That what the whole discussion is about bro, I told you earlier I realy care less if Jesus died or not, I only care about the meaning of the word Tawafa
# tell u what, bro....v wont make any headway in this manner! :-S
let us first decide whether taking away the soul is "death".....wat say? (-:
# take care....salam bro! (-:
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 1:43 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Ok mate I deleted it for you
how about we agree to disagree regarding Tawafa and discuss other issues?
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
just a quick note before I gor to bed
you said:
Quote: ‹ Select ›
# i dont get this bro...u have a clear verse in 39:42 which says that souls are first yatawaffa, and then death is decreed......i dont see why u want to read it as "caused to die"!
Bro but 39:42 saus clearly that Allah Yatawafa Al Anfus HEENA Mawtiha
the word Heena bro means AT THAT TIME not after it or before it
i.e. Allah Yatawafa Al Anfus AT THE TIME OF ITS DEATH, i.e. the Anfus are caused to die
# what does heena mean here, bro:
فسبحان الله حين تمسون وحين تصبحون
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
ahmedbahgat wrote:
Ok mate I deleted it for you
# thanx bro! (-:
Quote:
how about we agree to disagree regarding Tawafa and discuss other issues?
# opps...sowwy, bro!
sure...bro....suits me fine! (-: : agrees-to-disagree :
Quote:
Good night
# yups, buddy.........sleep like a baby! (-;
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 2:01 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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# u can lock this topic the next time u are here, bro! : happy :
## salam! (-:
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 2:04 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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# okayzz, bro...locked! (-:
Posted:
Sat 10 Mar, 2007 11:10 pm
Life Pawn
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# okayzz, bro...locked! (-:
Hi, Im the night watchman! checking your locks
A very good discussion, keep it alive.
Posted:
Tue 13 Mar, 2007 12:23 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Hello all
Apple Pie aka (chicken lies) is still trying to deceive others regarding 4:157, he claims that 4:157 confirms that Jesus was killed and crucified, here is a good reply to his crap that I osted on FFI:
Aksel Ankersen wrote:
Hello all
Welcome comments from anyone but especially Apple Pie (we have not talked before, but I've seen him writing this or something like it on several forums and I would like to run this past him).
Far out man
Again, Wa Ma, are two seperate words, the word Wa is simply And so I will totally ignore it, the word Ma is a device in Arabic that has many different uses, two of these uses are:
1) Deny a verb
2) To mean What
And as you said, saying, the sentence that appeared after, Wa Lakin Shubbiha Lahum, is enough to deny the crucifixion, however the problem with the conman AP's manipulation is this:
If you want to take the word Ma to mean What, instead of taking it as a deny device, then we have a serious problem, let me translate it to you using the wrong use of Ma and see how this should affect the verbs used: Qataluhu & Salabuhu
As you can see each verb above has a Damir Hu at the end (underlined), these two Damirs, refer to Jesus, and thit is why the meaning of Ma has to be a deny device to the verb because the Mafool Bihi (Jesus) (the one the verb is done upon) is mentioned (through the Damir Hu), this is hard to explain indeed but you can check it with any Arabic professor and they must confirm to you what I'm saying, so I will try to explain it again in more details:
A complete structure of any Arabic sentence can be two types:
1) Two nouns, and both are called Mubtadda and Khabar, for example :
AP Nassab, both are nouns and they mean AP conman, a proper translation should be AP is a conman
2) a verb + two nouns, and they are called, Fe'il, Fa'il and Mafool Bihi, (this is the case with the verse we have in hand 4:157), however before I discuss the verse let me explain this type of a complete sentence using a simple example:
Ahraga Ahmed AP, which means, Ahmed humiliated AP, now if Ahmed is known, then it is possible that Ahmed may be omitted and the sentence becomes Ahraga AP, for the listeners, when they hear it, there must be something in the discussion that will make them understand that the person who committed the verb upon AP is Ahmed and just been omitted to make the sentence easier and shorter, now, the Arabic allows you to even shorten it further without affecting the meaning in any way, this is achieved by removing AP (the Mafool Bihi) and replace him with a damih (hu) which is another word on its own, in Arabic, this Damir has to be attached to the verb, therefore Ahraga & hu becomes, Ahraghu,
See, we started with:
Ahraga Ahmed AP (Ahmed humiliated AP)
Then we shortened it to:
Ahraga AP (still means: Ahmed humiliated AP based on the assumption that prior to that, Ahmed was identified someway or another)
Then we shortened it to:
Ahraga Hu (still means Ahmed humiliated AP, based on the assumption that prior to that Ahmed and AP were identified)
Then we combine the two words Ahraga & hu to become
Ahragahu (still means Ahmed humiliated AP, but is said on the most shortest way ever)
Let's now apply this on the two verbs used in 4:157 Qataluhu & Salabuhu
As you can see the each verb has the Damir (hu) at the end, this means the sentence should have been
They killed him & They crucified him (assuming that we are talking about some known people who committed the two verbs),
We also know that the damir Hu is referring to Jesus, ie, the two sentence should have been:
They killed Jesus & They crucified Jesus
Now, let's put the word Ma in effect, and you should clearly see that the meaning of WHAT can never fit while Jesus is mentioned (through the Damir Hu)
let's now apply the meaning that AP allege over the sentence Ma Qataluhu
What they killed Jesus
See, hahahahahahahahahah, it can only be What they killed, Jesus should have never been mentioned in the sentence
The only bloody case that Ma (meaning What) to be accepted in 4:157, IS TO REMOVE JESUS FROM THE SENTENCE, i.e. the Damir Hu must never be attached to either of the two verbs if the meaning of Ma is What.
Now, by removing the damir from the word Qataluhu, we end up with:
Ma Qatalu, i.e. WHAT THEY KILLED, and in this case Ma may mean What
but because we have the damir Hu attached to each verb, i.e. the Mafool Bihi (Jesus) is mentioned, then the only meaning for Ma is DENY the verb
i.e. Ma Qataluhu, must mean, they did not kill him
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