Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hello All
Here is a comment by Mughal from FFI regarding my stoning article, I used to fight really ugly with him on another web site about two and half years ago, however on FFI both of us approaches the other very carefully, it looks like peaceful enviroment between us since I joined FFI, he is over 50 years old and claim to have left Islam, I don't believe him though and accused him of lying over a couple of years ago:
Mughal wrote:
Hello brother Ahmed Bahgat, greetings and thank you for your informative post.
Salam bro Mughal
No worries
Mughal wrote:
I have quoted you in my thread on the similar topic.
Bro you seem to reject hadith in its entirety here, am I understanding you correctly?
No you don't, I only reject what contradicts the Quran and the common sense
Mughal wrote:
I still have problem understanding the perspective you are trying to give to the quran ie regarding your stance.
Well, my stance is clear, I only follow any hadith teaching (if required) as long as it does not contradict the Quran, for the Quran though, I follow it blindly
Mughal wrote:
For example, do you believe that islam is a complete and perfect way of life?
Through its manual (the Quran), yes I believe so
Mughal wrote:
Does your version of Islam separate between religion and state?
I don't have a version of Islam, however if you want to call it a version, then my version is Quran based and any hadith that is not contradicting the Quran nor the common sense
Regarding religion and politics, yes I'm in favour that both should be separated in a well established country, however if the country is messed up then both has be done by the same ruler
Mughal wrote:
Thanks for the thread and keep up the good work. O yes and good luck with your debate with our sunni brethren.
They have not replied to me yet, I'm eager to see what they are going to say
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
And another one:
Mughal wrote:
Thanks bro ahmed for taking the trouble to clarify your position.
No trouble really, but you are welcome as long as you don't insult or lie about my prophet or the Quran.
Mughal wrote:
However, your explanation raises further questions eg
Sure, I didn't expect that my reply was the end of it
Mughal wrote:
what makes you think that the quran wants you to separate religion from state
Well, because the state is going to perish, in fact the whole earth is going to perish and what will be left is only the faith and the good deeds, the rulers and the people are equal in that aspect.
Mughal wrote:
and how would you come to know whether a country is messed up or not
Well, that is easy to know, a country like Australia is not messed up and a country like Egypt is messed up, the level of ignorance, crime, corruption etc are major criteria to judge if a country if messed up or not
Mughal wrote:
and when exactly to separate religion and state
When the country is not messed up
Mughal wrote:
and when not to do so?
When the contry is messed up, this is because when you apply the sharia of Allah in a country, then the first questionable citizen should be the ruler, on the other hand in a messed up country, you need to not only educate them politically but religioulsy as well and if you are the ruler it will be much easier to do so, when the people who are living in Jahillia are educated religiously enough, we can leave them on their own, at least we know that this is what they are going to do to their children, therefore we will replace the messed up generations with a religiously educated one that fear no one but Allah not their rulers or others.
Mughal wrote:
And yes, it would be interesting to know what reply you are going to get from the sunni side, in your on going debate.
regards and
It is a challenge to them, because my comment is very well put as you can see. See, I used what the enemy of Islam say against them but yet proved that both are wrong using the Quran, that is not an easy task btw, that is why I believe my article is irrefutable by both. See, falsehood is destined to perish
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
No trouble really, but you are welcome as long as you don't insult or lie about my prophet or the Quran.
Mughal wrote:
Thanks and you know as well as I that I do not lie nor insult on purpose.
Hello
The above raised my eye brow, so you agree that you may lie and insult but not on purpose?, forget insults, let????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s concentrate about lying without being on purpose, so if you discover that you lied without being on purpose will you have the curage to acknowledge it?
Mughal wrote:
My evidences if at all are all from the islamic sources regardless you like them or not.
It is not a matter of me liking them or not, it is matter of having one main source of Islam which is the Quran that should qualify all other sources including the Bible and the Torah, on the other hand you want those third party sources to be the judge on Islam, this is very misleading of course.
Mughal wrote:
I only use evidences that are appropriate in a discussion and the person I am discussing things with.
You have to understand very well, that in any Islamic discussion being between a muslim and a muslim or a muslim and a kafir, the Quran is the only thing that MUST prevail at the end.
Mughal wrote:
When I talk about islam in general I use standard islam and its standard well known sources because that is what a huge majoirty of muslims believe and in that case odd individuals are not taken into account.
It does not mean that if the majority believe in it that what they believe is right, it is only a matter of inheriting falsehood from their parents exactly as the Christians inherited their falsehood. Therefore to purify the corruption in Islam or to expose it, you can only use the Quran as the sole Islamic source.
Mughal wrote:
Of course I am a human being and therefore not perfect and then neither are you my friend so we must not expect perfection of each other.
Exactly, as long as me and you acknowledge our mistakes when they are exposed.
Mughal wrote:
This however does not mean that your views do not matter, for they do because whoever talks sense is also imporant to be considered.
Cool, and btw most of my arguments MUST have sense behind it, I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t parrot non sense that was taight to me by others.
Mughal wrote:
Some times when we discuss things our positions are not clear as to where we each stand and that should not be taken as insults but lack of information about the people involved as to where they stand.
Ok
Mughal wrote:
Just becuse you may not know my views or for that matter I may not know you views about islam should not be an obstacle.
Sure. My views about Islam are nothing but what is documented in the Quran in Arabic.
Mughal wrote:
Gradually we could move towards understanding each others views as discussions start and move on. So hope this clarifies the situation for both of us.
Sure
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Well, because the state is going to perish, in fact the whole earth is going to perish and what will be left is only the faith and the good deeds, the rulers and the people are equal in that aspect.
Mughal wrote:
Well bro, if you look at things from that point of view then state does not perish either as the concept of it lives on for all your rewards will be because of this state in the next state. Therefore life in this world cannot be separated from the next.
I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m talking about the state subject from a believer in the Quran point of view, the Quran clearly tells us that everything in this life is going to perish and what we will have on the JD is what is going to stay, so in effect whatever we build on this earth (state wise) is going to perish, it is all about testing the people by Allah and a good ruler must help his people pass that test. Not drive them into darkness and Jahillia, however I agree that what we do in this life is the only criteria for passing the test on the JD and in this aspect only yes I agree that the two lives can not be separated yet the states perished on that day.
Mughal wrote:
Moreover I was simply speaking in sense of politics in this world.
I disagree with all politicians in the world
Mughal wrote:
So kindly if you please clarify the situation for me so that I could see how you see political separation of religion and state.
as I said, when the country is stable in morals and principals and its people fear no one but Allah then politics can be separated from religion, however the ruler must always be held accountable to what the religion says even after separation, the laws of Allah are the only laws that can be trusted, I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t trust the human laws, they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t make any sense to me, for example you get caught with dope in Australia, you get a slap on the wrist but of you get caught in some other places on earth you get executed, while the same crime is committed by the same person for that matter, another examples goes like this, homosexuality was no no 50 years ago, now it is a great life style under the humans flawed laws, so in a state the laws of Allah must rule because these are the only laws that can never be changed according to our low desires.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Well, that is easy to know, a country like Australia is not messed up and a country like Egypt is messed up, the level of ignorance, crime, corruption etc are major criteria to judge if a country if messed up or not
Mughal wrote:
But bro Australia is a secular nonmuslim state and egypt is a muslim state
That????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s on papers only, it is not like when a human call him/herself a muslim I should take that for granted, this also applies to countries, so it is not like when a country call itself a muslim country that people should take this for granted, as a matter of fact I have never seem a true Muslim country in my 42 years of life, the closer I have see to the laws of Islam is what I saw in some western countries like Australia and America, in Australia there is Islam without Muslims, in Egypt there Muslims without Islam, this is how I see it
Mughal wrote:
and therefore despite all goodness australia is not free of unislamic things
Of course but it is closer to Islamic laws than the so called Muslimcountried, at least from the rulers aspect and their integrity.
Mughal wrote:
and inspite of all bad things there is a hope egypt could become free of unislamic things.
Dream on, it will never happen unless Allah wants it to happen, on the other hand Allah does not change the people status for better unless they change themselves first
Mughal wrote:
So I am a bit taken aback by your explanation so to speak. See if you can detail things a bit more for me.
I hope I did
AhmedBahgat wrote:
When the country is not messed up
Mughal wrote:
But Australia would seem messed up because there are unislamic things going on there all the time eg adutery, drinking, gambling just to name a few. Again please clarify things for me if you can, thanks.
It seems you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t know a lot about the middle east countries which full of so called Islamic countries, in Egypt they do it more but hidden, at least the Australians do it without hiding it, they are being honest, not hypocrites like many Egyptians who call themselves Muslims and god fearing people who do all immoral shit behind the scenes, so in Egypt there are far more whoring, far more alcohol, far more drugs, far more gambling, far more adultery far more fags, etc etc, it is mostly hidden that????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s all.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
When the contry is messed up, this is because when you apply the sharia of Allah in a country, then the first questionable citizen should be the ruler, on the other hand in a messed up country, you need to not only educate them politically but religioulsy as well and if you are the ruler it will be much easier to do so, when the people who are living in Jahillia are educated religiously enough, we can leave them on their own, at least we know that this is what they are going to do to their children, therefore we will replace the messed up generations with a religiously educated one that fear no one but Allah not their rulers or others.
Mughal wrote:
I understand the later part but not the first in your this reply. I do not think that when people are corrupt you can apply shariah,
What I mean is this, when people is corrupt, you get an uncorrupted ruler to fix the people flaws using Gods rules, when you face them with God rules while they claim to be believers then they should be able to argue while in the laws are man made then a believer may think that he has the right to argue about it, it is all about putting the people on the right track of democracy which is on of the basis of Islam.
Mughal wrote:
for why would people who are corrupt let you apply shariah?
Because Ii assumed that I will be the rulers so they can not mess around with me. LOL, an uncorrupted ruler though.
Mughal wrote:
In other words only islamically good would want shariah and not others
True, but which sharia exactly, a man made sharia or the God sharia?, so that what is putting all these so called countries behind because they follow a mix of man made and god made sharia, they are Mushrikoon.
Mughal wrote:
and if people are already islamcially good then you are saying let them be free,
Not really, because if they Islamically good and following the true sharia of Allah then there is no need for me to expect the contrary, on the other hand it may happen due to the human flaws and the Satan effects, so on a separated and stable state, a trusted religious body should be in place to always educate the people of Allah sharia not the man made sharia. In this case the rulers will be concentrating on politics and building his state.
Mughal wrote:
which is again a confusing answer as I see it,
It may look confusing however it is certainly a tough answer and hard to understand as well hard to implement under the current level of corruption that went on for a lengthy period of time (years and years) under corrupt rulers and a disabled religious body
Mughal wrote:
so please clarify exactly what is it that you want me to make of your this explanation?
I hope I did.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
It is a challenge to them, because my comment is very well put as you can see. See, I used what the enemy of Islam say against them but yet proved that both are wrong using the Quran, that is not an easy task btw, that is why I believe my article is irrefutable by both. See, falsehood is destined to perish
Salam
Mughal wrote:
Well, I wish you luck and wait and see what you get in reply if anything at all. I think sunnies are a tough nut to crack
You have to understand that there should be no sects in Islam, the sunni sect was the first sect created and the seed for all other sects to deviate from it and create their own sects, so I hold the sunnis the most responsible for the division of Islam and I;m going to be a tough nut to crack for them as well, I speak their language btw, whatever that language is, I was raised between them and I know very well how they think and react.
Mughal wrote:
and as far as perishing of falsehood, so far the falsehood (whatever it means to anyone) has not perished but you never know time has not ended yet.
Thank for your reply bro, take care and
Of course falsehood is widely spread, FFI, FM and many other so called Islamic web sites help in spreading this falsehood, but for me I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not worried because I now that the promise of Allah must come true that falsehood is DESTINED to perish whatever long it lives
Assalam alaikum.
Is lier more bad then drinker or drinker more bad then lier? Is drinking more harram from lieing? Pls give reasan answer Inshallah. Jazakallah.
Salam mate and welcome to Free-Islam
Lying is a sin of course, we were ordered in the Quran to say the truth even if it will hurt us, we also told that if we lie about Allah it will be a great sin and we will be following what Satan wants us to do exactly, we were also told many times to be with Al Sadiqeen, i.e. the truthful, which means those who don't lie, so I say it is not a small sin, as well I'm not really sure if its ithim magintude is described as the case of Alcohol, i have to do more researches inshallah and get back to you, however assuming that the ithim in lying is described as te ithim in alcohol was described, i.e. in it there is ithim kabir, that still does not make them equal in magnitude, we will never know how Allah judge the two compared to each other but we now well that one was described as in it is ithim kabir and the other was repeatedly warned against and the contrary of it which be truthful is the main theme of the Quran
Allah knows best
Take care
Assalam alaikum
Jazakallah and u too welcome.
I always very argue with my freinds about what faraz in Islam. I not say drinking alocohol good or not read namaz good but only say that doing other good things like speak truth and help others equal goodness. BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
I do not readQuran so I do not know true. What Quran tell is most important? Give reasan answer Inshallah
Jazakallah.
Posted:
Mon 04 Jun, 2007 4:40 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Baal wrote:
"Let he with no sin, casts the first stone."
Salam Baal
Do you know why Jesus said that?, I mean what logic you think Jesus was trying to present?
Baal wrote:
"Father, Father, Why have you forsaken me."
Ok, let me ask you, if you are a father and one day you have seen a mob hurting your child, urinating at him, bashing him, spitting at him, nailing him, spiking him, then want to hang him on a cross to kill him and to further humiliate his dead body, wouldn't you die to save your child?
if yes then please convince me how this god with all mighty power, failed to save his only son?, that weak god should be charged with child abuse because it would have been so easy for him to save his only biological child but he prefered to watch the mob humiliating him before they killed him in the worst manner possible, obvioulsy if that is true no one should wonder why the child screamed "Father, Father, Why have you forsaken me.". yep I second that and say : Father, Father, Why have you forsaken your only child.
Baal wrote:
Hello Ahmad,
That is a good and precise debate on why stoning should not be allowed in islam.
No doubt about it bro, even the kuffar agree on its merit which makes me happy of course. however it is not to make the kuffar happy rather to show the truth as seen from Allah words (the Quran) and their hearsay (the hadith)
Baal wrote:
I feel sorry you have to deal with those mockery of humanity,
I won't call them a mockery of humanity but i will call them misguided, as well i call you the same, sorry bro.
Baal wrote:
that would ask you to reconsider without taking the time to read or pinpoint what obviously took you a very long time to put together.
True man, they still have a long list from me to reply to, their web site domain has changed btw, it is now www.islamww.com, please have a look there, apparantly their web site is more popular than FFI, this is how the reports come from alexa.com
Baal wrote:
Your logic is that since Uthman's koran made a ruling and the hadith gives another ruling then Uthman's Koran takes precedence. Your logic is correct.
Actually I never mentioned Uthman, however what I mentioned to them that the THE PROPHET HIMSELF WAS THE ONE WHO RULED NOT TO INCLUDE IT IN THE QURAN according to their hearsay hadith that they believe in, me on the other hand incline to believe that hearsay regarding this matter. it just won't change the outcome that there is no stoning in the Quran.
Baal wrote:
Unfortunately for Islam and for those 2 people you were arguing with: You also open the door that Muhammed, for years, wrongfully stoned a lot of people.
I think you are missing an important issue, we just can't know for certain that Mohamed did that nor we can know the circumstances involved with each case neither it is important because the following simple fact, the stoning was already an order in the Bible, and possibly the verses of sheikh and sheikha was revelaed but Allah withdrew it, indeed there is a strong evidence in the Quran that suggests that this was the case (I can walk you through it if you are interested), I actually need to clarify my understanding a bit for someting I said earlier, I said no one can change Allah words, however I missed to say BUT HIM, I.E. there is nothing that can prevent Allah from changing His rules, infact there is many examples in the Quran that Allah has changed His laws, so when I say no one can change Allah words, I always mean BUT HIM., who can hold Him accountable for doing so?, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE. so possibly Allah has withdrew the verse as a mercy from Him towards the Zani and Zania, indeed if you look at 24:2 again where the punishment of Zanin and Zania is stated as 100 lashes you will see that NO COMPASSION TO BE SHOWEN is part of the package, it seems to me that Allah has decreased the punishment from stoning to lashes knowing in advance that the number of Zani and Zania will be on the rise as the human number on earth is increasing, that is possibly why NO FURTHER COMPASION is part of the package as read in 24:2, this should rimes with His Mercy of course, but I stress that what i just said is nothing but conjecture and surely Allah knows best.
Baal wrote:
One act of stoning I recall, took Muhammed 3 years from the moment Muhammed knew about the act to the moment of execution. It is impossible that, on such a critical judgement, as to executing a young new mother with a very painful and prolongued method, Muhammed did not ask Allah and Gabriel for advice and guidance.
I dont know bro, however the Quran told us that Mohammad was sent as mercy to the all humanity, so your conjecture is quite pluassible but it has to stay as conjecture, we just can't know, what we know well that there is no stoning in the Quran and the prophet declined to include the stoning verse on the Quran according to their hadith that they believe in and if that is true then permission from Allah must be given, he just could't do it on his own
iqbalismail wrote: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¹ Select ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????º
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
I donlt get you bro, can you please elaborate?
Hes is talking about those people who are corrupt, and they say salat is compulsary no matter what you do.
In my opinion these people live with false hope, becasue they think and do false things. Actually they are blind. But to question their salat is wrong, its a matter between human and God. And nobody knows what is in anybody heart.
Salam
Posted:
Tue 05 Jun, 2007 8:58 am
iqbalismail Pawn
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Joined: Jun 03, 2007
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Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
iqbalismail wrote:
Assalam alaikum
Salam mate
iqbalismail wrote:
Jazakallah and u too welcome.
No worries
iqbalismail wrote:
I always very argue with my freinds about what faraz in Islam.
Sorry mate, what is faraz?, do you mean obligatory?
iqbalismail wrote:
I not say drinking alocohol good or not read namaz good but only say that doing other good things like speak truth and help others equal goodness.
Sure
iqbalismail wrote:
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
I donlt get you bro, can you please elaborate?
iqbalismail wrote:
I do not readQuran so I do not know true.
Please try to read it and ask me questions if you have any, I will do my best to answer them to the best of my knowledge
iqbalismail wrote:
What Quran tell is most important? Give reasan answer Inshallah
Jazakallah.
I believe the most important thing to do in this test is to believe in Allah and not take any associates whatsoever with him,
Take care
Assalam alaikum
No I am sorry. I not want to worry u. I am sorry. I mean farz. Yaa compulsry.
Yaa they tell do bad bad thing and read namaz and Allah (S.W.T) forgeve u and bring u inside Jannat ul firdaus (Haven) .Do good thing and not read namaz Allah (S.W.T) very angry and bring u inside Jahannam. (Hell)
I not read english but i read english very slow. I try for ur telling Inshallah. Jazakallah. My MUslim freind very bad. Mother Theresa very good but she Christan. Why Allah (S.W.T) bring my freinds in haven and Mother Theresa in hell? Sorry if I not allaow to ask this thing. my freind telling me Allah (S.W.T) not like it. Yaa not take any asociates with Allah (S.W.T) Jazakallah. _________________ Sana Subhanallah.
Posted:
Tue 05 Jun, 2007 8:12 pm
iqbalismail Pawn
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Post subject:
Life wrote:
Quote:
iqbalismail wrote: ‹ Select ›
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
I donlt get you bro, can you please elaborate?
Hes is talking about those people who are corrupt, and they say salat is compulsary no matter what you do.
In my opinion these people live with false hope, becasue they think and do false things. Actually they are blind. But to question their salat is wrong, its a matter between human and God. And nobody knows what is in anybody heart.
Salam
Life wrote:
Quote:
iqbalismail wrote: ‹ Select ›
BUt they say NO not matter if u speak lie and, do bad but reading namaz most importent.
I donlt get you bro, can you please elaborate?
Hes is talking about those people who are corrupt, and they say salat is compulsary no matter what you do.
In my opinion these people live with false hope, becasue they think and do false things. Actually they are blind. But to question their salat is wrong, its a matter between human and God. And nobody knows what is in anybody heart.
Salam
Assalam alaikum
Yaa yaa. They say do bad thing and read namaz more good. I say not do bad thing and not read namaz more good. WHat i try telling is I tell Listen if only read namaz or only do no bad thing then only do no bad thing. What Quran say abaut this? Pls give reasan answer Inshallah. Jazakallah. _________________ Sana Subhanallah.
Posted:
Tue 05 Jun, 2007 8:19 pm
iqbalismail Pawn
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Post subject: I TELLING LISTEN
Assalam alaikum
Quran not telling anything? Very sad. I retell what i telling. Listen in Day of Qayamat Allah (S.W.T) more forgeve not reading namaz and less forgeve doing bad thing. Am my friend right or I right? Pls give reasan answer Inshallah. JazAkallah.
I forget telling. My freinds reading namaz rich n Me poor. If I telling anythings to them they telling me than why do Allah (S.W.T) making us rich n making u poor? I telling them many gayr musalman too SOOO rich. SO what if I poor n they rich. BUt I think they right n I sad. _________________ Sana Subhanallah.
Last edited by uroojchap on Mon 02 May, 2011 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Thu 28 Apr, 2011 5:46 pm
Minhaj Pawn
Status: Age: 34 Faith:
Zodiac: Joined: Apr 01, 2011
Posts: 21 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam all;
Well concerning the status of alcohol, I will put in my two-cents worth (taken from the commentary):
???????????????¢??They ask you about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: In both of them there is a great sin and means of profit for men, and their sin is greater than their profit. And they ask you as to what they should spend. Say: What you can spare. Thus does Allah make clear to you the communications, that you may ponder.???????????????¢????????????????
2:219
The precepts of Islam are clarified by the Qur???????????????¢??an (it is the Criterion). Zakat is what we can afford. This ayah also shows that there is no abrogation concerning alcohol. Revealed before 4:43 and 5:90-91, it clearly states that consuming alcohol is a sin. 4:43 merely mentions the conditions for prayer (state of mind, ablution etc.) whilst 5:90 declares that intoxicants are the work of Iblis. Why would Allah (SWT) wait until 5:93 to declare this? Did intoxicants only become the work of Iblis at that moment? No, 5:90-91 is a reminder for the inhabitants of Medina:
???????????????¢??O you who believe! intoxicants and games of chance and (sacrificing to) stones set up and (dividing by) arrows are only an uncleanness, the Shaitan???????????????¢??s work; shun it therefore that you may be successful. The Shaitan only desires to cause enmity and hatred to spring in your midst by means of intoxicants and games of chance, and to keep you off from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. Will you then desist????????????????¢????????????????
5:90-91
The words ???????????????¢??Will you then desist????????????????¢???????????????? confirms that it is a reminder. To a new ayah, 16:67 should not be considered an allowance for the consumption of alcoholic beverages. Rather, it states that alcohol AND goodly provision is obtained from the palm and grapes. One is that which is pure and wholesome food for us, and the other is that which turns into alcohol after it rots. It has been left to our choice to obtain pure, healthy food from this providence or to drink it as an intoxicating wine (exciting us and making us lose self-control). This also contains a hint as to the prohibition of wine.
In short, there is no punishment for drinking alcohol, but as a matter between each person and Allah (SWT), it seems to represent a black mark on one's faith.
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