Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: A Town House in Hell
Junkmaster wrote:
Just how many Muslims do you think could read back then and which was more prevalent the oral Koran or the written Koran?
Well, not all of course was able to read, I also believe that most of them were not able to read or write at the same time, ONLY AN ELITE GROUP OF FLUENT ARABS WHO WERE KNOWN AS SHUAARA, i.e. poets and it is well known that before Mohammad those elite group of fluent Arab poets existed
Now for your question, of course the ORAL QURAN is more prevlent, this because the one who will read it most likely will be fluent and will recite it properly, the others around him or her can listen to the properly recited words then ponder upon it, I'm one of those fluent arabs, YET I LISTEN TO THE RECITED QURAN BY MY FAVORITE READER THAN READING IT MYSELF, in fact this is what Allah told us to:
And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you. [The Quran ; 7:204]
وَإِذَا قُرِىءَ الْقُرْآنُ فَاسْتَمِعُواْ لَهُ وَأَنصِتُواْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ (204)
-> The message of our God is clear as light:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And when the Quran is read, then listen to it and remain silent, that mercy may be shown to you.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????
Junkmaster wrote:
Perhaps at first when the Arabs were moving from an oral model to a written model their first attempt wasn't perfect and didn't need to be since most Muslims then would memorize the Koran instead of relying on a book to do it for them.
Haha, thanks for the laugh, the oral Quran is the Quran, there are many who dont know how to read as well millions with impaired vision, now, read 7:204 above and you should read clearly that we were ordered ro LISTEN to the oral Quran when it is recited and we should keep silent and concentrate.
Junkmaster wrote:
Even today, 1400 years later,The Muslim populations have a very low percentage of basic literacy and even smaller for Arabic,
Exactly, that is why those who will recite the Quran should be fluent and professional, the others CAN LISTEN ACCORIDNG TO 7:204 above
NOW, THOSE PROFESSIONAL QURAN READERS WILL NOT BE ABLE TO READ THE QURAN WITHOUT THE DOTS, they can however read it without the diacritical markings, see
Junkmaster wrote:
I can't image it being any more than 1% of the population back then so an easily readable Koran wasn't a necessity
Of course it was a necessity according to Allah plan execution that Uthamn did it. the religion of Islam is based on a proper and professional reciting of the Quran, this is how the message is propagated.
Junkmaster wrote:
and probably had more to do with idolatry than accurate transmission of information.
Dismissed
Junkmaster wrote:
People like to be able to hold things in their hands even if they can't read them or understand them because it gives them a false sense of power.
The crap must be dismissed, therefore, dismissed
Junkmaster wrote:
Didn't early Muslims even use pages of the Koran for magic spells?
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Junky
I will only reply to your last paragraph, the rest is crap as you know
Junkmaster wrote:
What exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know why you believe some deity would create deaf people or let his followers create them through bombings and then command them to LISTEN to the Koran?
Look Junky
You have been classified as a dishonest man who only attack my religion motivated by bias and hatred, and those like you have no right to ask me any question, this is my rules that I adhere to, if you show respect to my religion, I will be happy to answer any question that you have to the best of my knowledge, however you are only mocking around and I really and honestly have no time for such crap and junk.
Now in your comment above, I dont know what you are talking about really, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m not discusiing any BOMBINGS in here, so stop confusing the subject motivated by your hatred and bias
Now regarding the deaf, if they read, then they have no probs, but if they can not read nor hear then I dont think they can be held responsible, this is because the one who gave others knowledge and hearing is the same one who took it away from them (the God), they are classified as disabled people and Allah is 100% fair , those disabled people have been forced by Allah to go through a tougher test as well they are a test for the healthy ones to see how they should treat them, it is a test for all and every one will be rewarded based on what they have done and what was taken away from them.
Junkmaster wrote:
What exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know if you have ever considered the possibility that you belong to a cult which uses classic brainwashing techniques such as repetitive verbal conditioning?
Junkmaster wrote:
What exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know if you can see the absurdity in claiming the Oral Koran is the only true Koran but that it can't be properly transmitted without the written Koran and expect us to believe that it was transmitted correctly for the many years it didn't exist in written form?
For a believer it is not absurdity you kafir bound to hell, they believe what Allah said in the Quran, Allah was in charge in collecting it and preserving it, now I have no bloody problem that you don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t believe it, why the f** you have a problem that I believe it?
Don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t f*** stick your long nose in my personal affairs you freak
Junkmaster wrote:
And the most important dodge of all, what exactly is 'crap' about wanting to know if YOU interact with YOUR written Koran in any extraordinary manner?
I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t give a f** if you or any other one to know how I interact with my written Quran, I only care that the Author of the Quran knows how I interact with His book.
Junkmaster wrote:
If anything, your beliefs are crap because you can't defend them or explain them.
I dont need to defend my belief to you junky, exactly as you dont need to defend your disbelief to me
The crap is really holy when you stick your long nose in what does not belong to you.
Junkmaster wrote:
I don't think you correctly understand the word "dismiss" because the only context that would make your use of the word make sense would also contradict its use. Perhaps you should just ignore things you are unable to explain or use a more appropriate term such as "no comment."
Junkmaster wrote:
The written Koran has been used for much more than just magical healing spells, I was just using that as one example. I think you must be ignorant to its alleged magical properties as claimed by Muslims in the past and present.
Claimed by the Muslims?, hmmmm, as if you know well that they are LOL, you are nothing but a freak who only wants to believe the BS about this great religion
A typical dishonest kafir bound to hell:
Junkmaster wrote:
In your above explanation about healing humans, what purpose or part does the written Koran play?
Is to get us close to Allah so He heals the disease that suppose to be caused by Him from the first place, let me educate a kafir like ya, Prophet Ibrahim was arguing with a bunch of kafirs bound to hell like you, so he was trying hard to explain to them what the real God is:
78: Who created me, then He guides me:
79: And He Who feeds me and gives me drink:
80: And when I am sick, then He restores me to health
81: And He Who will cause me to die, then resurrect me;
82: And Who, I hope, will forgive me my mistakes on the day of judgment.
83: My Lord: Grant me wisdom, and join me with the good [The Quran ; 23:78-83]
الَّذِي خَلَقَنِي فَهُوَ يَهْدِينِ (78)
وَالَّذِي هُوَ يُطْعِمُنِي وَيَسْقِينِ (79)
وَإِذَا مَرِضْتُ فَهُوَ يَشْفِينِ (80)
وَالَّذِي يُمِيتُنِي ثُمَّ يُحْيِينِ (81)
وَالَّذِي أَطْمَعُ أَن يَغْفِرَ لِي خَطِيئَتِي يَوْمَ الدِّينِ (82)
رَبِّ هَبْ لِي حُكْمًا وَأَلْحِقْنِي بِالصَّالِحِينَ (83)
-> See what the great prophet Ibrahim who established the religion of Islam was saying about Allah to the bunch of ignorant kafirs like you: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Who created me, then He guides me:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And He Who feeds me and gives me drink????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, now let me ask an ignorant kafir like you, did the fruits and veges evolved themselves to make themselves food for us? Oh yeh, let me ask you again, did the universe evolved itself to send us water from the skies in the shape of rain?
-> See when Ibrahim got sick how he knew that only Allah is the healer: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And when I am sick, then He restores me to health????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, does a kafir like you know the story of prophet Job? See, all those prophets were sent so we learn from their stories, but a kafir like you prefers to spend half of his time getting drunk and screwing women and the rest of your life, you spend it mocking the God and those who believe in Him, no wonder your hell town house will be well deserved, I reckon your hell town house will be in a hot hell suburb named Saqar, a nice hell suburb full of Zaqqum trees, I hope you also get a lava front hell town house.
-> You should know that if Allah exits then he will resurrect you after you turn to dust: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And He Who will cause me to die, then resurrect me;????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see you can????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t deny on the JD that no one told you that, I will come and give witness against you that I did.
-> When you are resurrected, you won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t be entitled to what someone like Ibrahim and any believer will be entitled to:????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? And Who, I hope, will forgive me my mistakes on the day of judgment.????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, if Ibrahim can have mistakes, then sure someone like me and you must have plenty of it, but hey I may be entitled to forgiveness, but for you, hmmmm, well you can only cry because you must be bound to hell without any atom of forgiveness, it has to be fair, you know, well, let me ask ya then, why the God forgives the mistakes of those who refused to believe in Him after they received the message? You won????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t dare to deny that you received the message, it seems you are heading for a very tough situation if Allah exists, good luck to you
-> See, for a kafir bound to hell like ya, you heard the message and instead of saying what Ibrahim said: ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? : My Lord: Grant me wisdom, and join me with the good????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, you only attack the message and join the bad. I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m sure if Allah exists you will be the only evidence on yourself to convict ya and get thrown in hell with the bad.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
it is all about Allah you ignorant kafir bound to hell, it is not about the Quran, however the Quran is the main tool that He used to communicate to us and we should use it back to communicate to Him
Junkmaster wrote:
Your above attempt at an appeal to force just goes to show what a contradictory and cruel belief system you allow yourself to believe in. It isn't my fault that you aren't able to properly explain your cult beliefs,
My cult belief is only the Quran you punk, that is what I only talk you lying freak, i. bloody e., I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m explaining my cult better than anyone who resort to third party BS as you do and many confused Muslims do, you really need to piss off because you only waste my valued time to be honest, and every time you do so with some Tom and jerry crap, I will keep hammering you
Junkmaster wrote:
nor is it my fault that your alleged deity choose such an archaic and imprecise language that leads to arguments rather than wisdom.
Haha, an ignorant like you knows nothing about the language so you better shut the hell up and not stick your long and kafir nose in what does not belong to you, ignorant
Junkmaster wrote:
You haven't even proved that the Koran is from Allah
I don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t need to prove it you dumb bum, I????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢m only required to believe it
Junkmaster wrote:
or that Allah even exists,
Again you dumb kafir bum, I dont need to prove it, I only believe it
Do I f*** ask ya to prove your non belief?
It is bloody you who is itchy about my belief, so piss off and don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t stick your confused nose in my affairs
Junkmaster wrote:
so to claim it is the main tool used to communicate with muslims is laughable.
laughable at your ignorance of course
Junkmaster wrote:
I would agree that it was Muhammad's main tool to manipulate his followers.
And I agree with that, however manipulation to join the good, for you, you can choose to join the bad, your hell town house will be reserved for you in Saqar suburb
AhmedBahgat wrote:
whatever you are going to say next will be dismissed, i don't have time to watse with a jerk like ya :*)
Junkmaster wrote:
Fine by me, here is what I was going to say next
"there is no god but Allah, and Muhammad is the messenger of Allah"
dismissed
Hmmm, and what is my problem with your disbelief exactly? _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Tue 10 Jul, 2007 10:00 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Junkmaster wrote:
Oh yeah, that's right. You aren't even a real Muslim. Practically a kafir yourself, don't some sunni muslim groups have a few fatwas on your type?
Well, there is no fatwa yet, but I'm sure it is coming, well, do you think I'm a coward who will fear a bunch of enemies of Allah?
Think not, I will fight those confused Muslims who want to hijack the religion of Allah (to serve their low desires) till the last breath i have
Also junky, there is no sects in Islam, let me educate you and educate your fellow confused sunni Muslims:
We know well that Islam nowdays has numerous sects as well new sects are being invented every now and then, the problem though that those who are dividing the religion into sects are violating Allah orders big times, let's have a look
The following verse clearly warns the believers from dividing their religion:
Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs: For them is a dreadful penalty,- [The Quran ; 3:105]
وَلاَ تَكُونُواْ كَالَّذِينَ تَفَرَّقُواْ وَاخْتَلَفُواْ مِن بَعْدِ مَا جَاءهُمُ الْبَيِّنَاتُ وَأُوْلَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (105)
[The Quran ; 3:105]
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, but if they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t listen and surely many of the so called believers didn't in the form of sectarian Islam as we all know, then this is what they will get from Allah ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? For them is a dreadful penalty????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, see A DREADFUL PENALY, i.e. those whom you meet and claim to be following a special Islamic sect MUST BE PUNISHED by Allah according to 3:105 and the punishment is going to be dreadful.
The Quran is even clearer showing us that those who divide their religion are not really the true followers of Mohammad:
Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. [The Quran ; 6:159]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُواْ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُواْ يَفْعَلُونَ (159)
[The Quran ; 6:159]
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُواْ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Surely they who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, i.e. Mohammad has nothing to do with them, i.e. they are not following him, they are only following what they invented and every sect is rejoicing with that they invented for themselves, this fact is clearly stated in another location:
30- Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????
31- Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists
32- Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them [The Quran ; 30:30-32]
فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا فِطْرَةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (30)
مُنِيبِينَ إِلَيْهِ وَاتَّقُوهُ وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَلَا تَكُونُوا مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (31)
مِنَ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا كُلُّ حِزْبٍ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُونَ (32)
-> Here is the order to only hold the religion of Allah :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, this upright religion was sent to us from Allah in the Quran, it is not the BS human made and called it sects nor any teaching that implies any division in the religion like the 4 Mazhabs for example, I was astonished to find many westerners who reverted to Islam that they boast about which Mazhab they follow, i.e. from day one of their Islam they are mislead by some confused scholars who already been divided for years and years
-> This up right religion of Allah is nothing more than :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, and that????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢s indeed what Islam is in very short words
-> And here the fact that we see it today between the sunni, shia and other sects of rejoicing with what they invented for themselves while rejecting what the other sects invented for themselves, :????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? Of those who divided their religion and became sects, every sect rejoicing in what they had with them????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????, indeed this statement is valid to all Islam sects who divided their upright religion into numerous sects, and we know well that they are not following Mohammad as 6:159 told us and we also know that they will have a dreadful penalty as 3:105 told us.
Indeed turning any religion into sects is a clear cut contradiction within the followers of all these sects because a true religion sent by the one God is all about uniting humanity under His convenant and this is exactly what Allah told us:
And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited,????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦ [The Quran ; 3:103]
وَاعْتَصِمُواْ بِحَبْلِ اللّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلاَ تَفَرَّقُواْ ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????¦. (103)
-> See, ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????????????????????????And hold fast by the covenant of Allah all together and be not disunited????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? but that is not what all Islamic sects do as we all know
Therefore, those secterian Muslims are screwed in the head and possibly killing each other is one of the punishments Allah made them do, so they may wake up before one hell of a dreadful day when they will know that they were not following the prophet nor the prophet has anything to do with their inventiions, therefore they must earn a dreadful penalty
What else I can say?, one thing left to say, I just said above "possibly killing each other is one of the punishments Allah made them do", that is exactly what He told us as well in His Quran:
Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet, or that He should throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties; and make some of you taste the fighting of others. See how We detail the signs that they may understand. [The Quran ; 6:65]
قُلْ هُوَ الْقَادِرُ عَلَى أَن يَبْعَثَ عَلَيْكُمْ عَذَابًا مِّن فَوْقِكُمْ أَوْ مِن تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِكُمْ أَوْ يَلْبِسَكُمْ شِيَعاً وَيُذِيقَ بَعْضَكُم بَأْسَ بَعْضٍ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُصَرِّفُ الآيَاتِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَفْقَهُونَ (65)
-> The verse is telling Mohammad to tell us: "Say: He has the power that He should send on you a chastisement from above you or from beneath your feet", Allah also has the power to :"throw you into confusion, (making you) of different parties (divided), and make some of you taste the fighting of others.", I always say the word "SEE" when there is a compeling Quran argument, I learnt it from the Quran actually, this is what we SEE today between the Sunni and Shia sects for example and Allah is telling us if we can SEE it :"See how We detail the signs that they may understand.", Obvioulsy the CONFUSED Sunnis and Shias sects deserved this curse from Allah because they violated the unity of this religion by inventing sects and each one of them is rejoicing with what they invented while rejecting the other sect
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