Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject: The Muslims should not use this Quran verse:
Salam Muslim brothers and sisters
I have noticed since 9/11 that most Muslims use the following verse to defend against the false accusation that the Quran encourages killing the innocents, let?????????????????????¢??s have a look:
For this reason did We have ordained on the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for another soul or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land. [The Quran ; 5:32]
مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْسًا بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي الأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعًا وَلَقَدْ جَاء تْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِالبَيِّنَاتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِّنْهُم بَعْدَ ذَلِكَ فِي الأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ (32)
-> Obvioulsy the verse above is not directed at the believers, can you see what it says at the beginning: مِنْ أَجْلِ ذَلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَى بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ , Min Ajl Zalik Katabna Ala Bani Israel, i.e. For this reason did We have ordained on the children of Israel, i.e. what was ordained by Allah was SPECIFIC for the children of Israel, which is: that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for another soul or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men , most certainly that this verse is not ordained on the Muslims directly, while I agree that it applies to every human on earth indirectly, yet it can?????????????????????¢??t be used to refute the false accusation against the great Quran, what you should use is the following verse which is ordained on the believers not Bani Israel:
Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause. And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir an authority: but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the divine law). [The Quran ; 17:33]
وَلاَ تَقْتُلُواْ النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللّهُ إِلاَّ بِالحَقِّ وَمَن قُتِلَ مَظْلُومًا فَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا لِوَلِيِّهِ سُلْطَانًا فَلاَ يُسْرِف فِّي الْقَتْلِ إِنَّهُ كَانَ مَنْصُورًا (33)
-> See how celar is the command to the believers: وَلاَ تَقْتُلُواْ النَّفْسَ الَّتِي حَرَّمَ اللّهُ إِلاَّ بِالحَقِّ , Wa La Taqttilu Al Nafs Allati Harram Allah Illa Bi Al Haqq, i.e. Nor take life - which Allah has made sacred - except for just cause., and if anyone killed another innocent human then Allah has ordained that the deceased family to force the Qisas, i.e. killing the one who killed, if they wish: And if anyone is slain wrongfully, we have given his heir an authority, that heir (the deceased family) should not exceed the limit in forcing the Qisas, i.e. only the one who killed should be killed: but let him not exceed bounds in the matter of taking life; for he is helped (by the divine law).
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Salam All
When I posted this thread on Faithfreedom web site (FFI), which is directed to my Muslims brothers and sisters to inform them with a common mistake that many of them commit, the kafirs of FFI joined the thread trying hard to disturb the message of my thread, so instead of them agreeing or disagreeing with what I said, they bloody diverted the subject with yet their usual crap that Mohammed is quoting a Jewish Rabbi who said the same in year 200 CE, however the idiots failed to provide evidences that their man made Talmod was translated into Arabic so Mohammed would have managed to read it and steal from it, in fact they even failed to provide an english translation to their man made Talmod, this confirms that 1400 years ago there was no Arabic version of their man made Talmod, the way it should happen then that this Rabbi have taught Mohammed as such, but that is impossible because the Rabbi is not an Arab to teach Mohammed in his language whatever, in fact the Quran exposes such stupidity by the kafirs (on FFI like yezzee and brainout) , let me show it to you:
And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue. [The Quran ; 16:103]
وَلَقَدْ نَعْلَمُ أَنَّهُمْ يَقُولُونَ إِنَّمَا يُعَلِّمُهُ بَشَرٌ لِّسَانُ الَّذِي يُلْحِدُونَ إِلَيْهِ أَعْجَمِيٌّ وَهَذَا لِسَانٌ عَرَبِيٌّ مُّبِينٌ (103)
-> See how 16:103 is talking about the likes of FFI kafirs brainout and yezee: And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him. The tongue of him whom they reproach is barbarous, and this is clear Arabic tongue., the word ?????????????????????¢??THEY?????????????????????¢?? is referring to the likes of brainout and yezee, SEE HOW ACCURATE THE QURAN IS
Indeed the Quran always have the last laugh (metaphor) against the ignorant and deluded kafirs of FFI
Status: Age: 38 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Well, if there is no historical context in the Quran, then Muslims should get the right to cite this verse.
Posted:
Thu 29 Nov, 2007 5:36 am
Windsor Pawn
Status: Age: 38 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 25, 2007
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Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
When I posted this thread on Faithfreedom web site (FFI), which is directed to my Muslims brothers and sisters to inform them with a common mistake that many of them commit, the kafirs of FFI joined the thread trying hard to disturb the message of my thread, so instead of them agreeing or disagreeing with what I said, they bloody diverted the subject with yet their usual crap that Mohammed is quoting a Jewish Rabbi who said the same in year 200 CE, however the idiots failed to provide evidences that their man made Talmod was translated into Arabic so Mohammed would have managed to read it and steal from it,
So instead of praising you for your honesty, they try to find a loophole to attack the Quran!! If the world is suffering it's because such mentalities exist!
Posted:
Thu 29 Nov, 2007 5:39 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
monasjazz wrote:
okay , dear Ahmad ..keep going ..
with my pleasure , I'll be waiting for it and want to see another proven that Qoran is still existed until today ..
one of the scriptures in Koran is that Jews are hypocritic and Christians are wrongdoers , both of them are liars ..as long as the time goes by ..
&
Hello Mona and all Muslim brothers and sisters
Again this message is for you. As you have seen that the main thread is directed to you and not to the kafirs, however they were welcome of course to join and either agree or disagree with the thread, however the freaks joined in to divert the main message by spewing their crap that Mohammed either stole or was taught the same teaching by a rabbi, The Quran told us in advance that what those kafirs claim is nothing but wishful thinking because that whoever that rabbi is, he didn?????????????????????¢??t speak Arabic, nor he wrote it in Arabic. The freaks never presented a compelling evidence to prove that it was the case, absolutely none other than quoting a passage from a version of a Talmud that they have
The freaks ignore the fact that those rabbis whoever they were, are suppose to be men of God, who taught others what they leanrt from the God, in no way they invented crap and they told them that it is from the God, that is what they say, right?,
Anyway I spent all day searching the net today and discovered many surprises, let me start with this:
We are told that the inscription is from the Talmud, "He who saves a single life, saves the entire world." (This quotation also appears on posters advertising the movie Schindler's List in video stores and schools, apparently having been selected as the film's motto by its promoters).
The saying has a nice, warm, humanistic tenor, but there's just one problem: that's not what the Talmud says. The actual Talmud verse states, Whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel, Scripture ascribes to him as if he had preserved a complete world" (Tractate Sanhedrin 37a). The Talmud only praises the saving of Jewish lives.
It seems ygang is an experienced conman and a professional gangsta, the freak is bringing to us something that is not from the Talmud as seen above, what is in the Talmud : Whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel
5:32 however never said that, it said: whoever saves a life PERIOD. i.e. ANY LIFE, their Talmud however is specific that it has to be A JEWISH LIFE
i.e. what is in verse 5:32 is not what is in their Talmud
Let?????????????????????¢??s now elaborate further on the above, the info above is compiled from many web sites:
if any one slew a person ?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¦ it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if any one saved a person, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity.
This is part of what was ordained for the Children of Israel. It is natural to ask where in the Israeli writings the principle equating the killing/saving of one person with the killing/saving the whole humanity is found.
The principle is not found in the Bible but we do find it in the Talmud, a collection writings by Rabbisl and exegetical opinions considered by the Jews almost as sacred as the Bible itself.
The tradition is found in two versions, one is somewhat universal and the other is ethnocentric.
The universalist version, which is rather late, the Jerusalem Talmud, reads:
?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¦ For thus we find in the case of Cain, who killed his brother, that it is written: 'The bloods of your brother cry unto Me [Genesis ; 4:10].
-> It is not said here blood\ in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Therefore was Adam created alone, to teach us that whoever destroys a single life, the scriptures considers it as if he destroyed a whole race. And whoever saves a single life, the scriptures considers it as if he saved a whole race. (Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4.5)
Here we find a principle similar to the one given in the Quran, although the Quran takes it to new heights. As in the Quran, so also in the above Talmudic passage the principle is connected with the story of the murder of Abel by his brother Cain.
The second version, which is ethnocentric is earlier. It is found in the Babylonian Talmud:
Therefore was man created singly, to teach that whoever destroys a single life from Israel is considered by Scripture as if he had destroyed an entire world and that whoever preserves a single life from Israel is considered by Scripture as if he had preserved an entire world.
Here the words from Israel give to the passage the ethnocentric meaning that a single Israeli life is so valuable that destroying/saving it is considered as destroying/saving an entire world.
Which of the two versions is original?
In favour of the second version there is the fact that it is attested earlier. In favour of the first version there is the argument that it fits better the reasoning behind the passage.
This reasoning seems to be as follows: human beings were not created all at the same time but as offspring from individual men. If an individual man lived the whole tribe or race that descends from him came into existence and if that individual man died then a tribe or race that could have descended from him is also killed. This teaches us that the killing of one man is like killing a whole tribe and saving one man is like saving a whole tribe.
The above argument in favour of the universalist version can be countered by saying that numerous very explicit statements in the Talmud state that non-Israelites are not really among the children of Adam.
Restricting the above reasoning to the Israelites as the only children of Adam gives the ethnocentric formulation we find in the Babylonian Talmud. Thus there may be no real difference between the two versions. The second simply makes explicit what is implicit in the first.
There is also the possibility that the universal version entered Judaism under the influence of Islam, since that version is not attested with certainty before Islam.
In any case, the Quran not only corrects the ethnocentric version but also improves the ?????????????????????¢??universalist?????????????????????¢?????????????????????? version. In the latter, killing/saving a single person is like killing/saving a whole tribe or race that descends or could have descended from him. In the Quran the killing/saving a single person is like killing/saving of the whole humankind and not just the tribe or race descending from him.
In this way the Quran takes the value of an individual human life to a new height. Some Christians and Jews and Christians fail to recognize this. They use the similarity between the Talmudic and Quranic passages to assert rather that the Prophet Muhammad took ideas from the Jews, the Christians and other earlier sources and passed them on as divine revelation. (This alone will require a comment on its own later on inshallah)
Let?????????????????????¢??s now study the Talmud further:
The Talmud is a two-part collection of the sayings of ancient Rabbis. These two parts consist of the Mishnah (Teaching) and the Gemara (Completion). The Mishnah contains the earlier Rabbinic material, and the Gemara is later Rabbinic commentary on the Mishnah.
There are two editions of the Talmud, the Jerusalem Talmud and the Babylonian Talmud. Of these two, the Babylonian Talmud is authoritative for Orthodox Judaism, which regards it as divinely inspired.
The superiority of the Babylonian Talmud is so great, that "...when people now talk about the Talmud, they always mean the Babylonian Talmud. The authority of the Babylonian Talmud is also greater than that of the Jerusalem Talmud. In cases of doubt the former is decisive. (pg. 40, From Torah to Kabbalah, by R.C. Musaph-Andriesse, New York, Oxford University Press, 1982, emphasis in original text)
Further, Thus the fuller Babylonian Talmud became the dominant work: when reference is made to the Talmud, the Babylonian Talmud is meant... (pg. 105, "The Sacred Books of the Jews," by Harry Gersh, Stein and Day, New York, 1968)
It was stated earlier that the Talmud (i.e. the Babylonian Talmud) has: Whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel, Scripture ascribes to him as if he had preserved a complete world.
Bebbington's unknown author states:
In the Talmud Bavli [the Babylonian Talmud; ARC], where this mishnah appears on Sanhedrin 37a, the wording is the same, except for the substitution of life of a single Jew' (nefesh a'hat\mi-yisrael) for life of a single human being'.
The above should be enough to totally demolish their argument against the Quran and send the gang of deceit lead by gangsta back to their prison cells
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel, Scripture ascribes to him as if he had preserved a complete world"[/u] (Tractate Sanhedrin 37a).
ygalg wrote:
it's from babylon talmud the second edition.
not from jerusalem talmud the first edition. the 'first edition' confirms which of two is the hen or the egg.
Mishnah 4.5, The Babylonian Talmud, Soncino English translation, translated by Jacob Shachter, University Press, Oxford, 1935, pg. 234:
Sanhedrin 37a: "...whosoever destroys a single soul of Israel, Scripture imputes [guilt] to him as though he had destroyed a complete world; and whosoever preserves a single soul of Israel, Scripture ascribes [merit] to him as though he had preserved a complete world."
Mishnah 4.5, Der Babylonische Talmud, translated and provided with short explanations by Lazarus Goldschmidt, German translation of the Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin pgs. 169-170:
Sanhedrin 37a: "...dass wenn jemand eine jisraelitische Seele vernichtet, es ihm die Schrift anrechnet, als hatte er eine ganze Welt vernichtet, und wenn jemand eine jisraelitische Seele erhalt, es ihm die Schrift anrechnet, als hatte er eine ganze Welt erhalten."
This German passage, which may be translated much the same way as the Soncino English cited above, also contains the restriction of a blessing reserved only to saving an Israelite soul (eine jisraelitische Seele).
This Goldschmidt translation was the only complete, uncensored German translation of the Babylonian Talmud at the time of World War Two. It is worth noting that Goldschmidt specifically made his Talmud translation "according to the first uncensored Bromberg edition (Venice 1520-23)," comparing it to the famous uncensored (and handwritten) Munich Talmud text. Goldschmidt's Talmud for Sanhedrin was published in The Hague and Berlin in 1933.
Mishnah 4.5, The Talmud of Babylonia; An American Translation, translated by Jacob Neusner, Bavli Sanhedrin 4:5, Scholars Press, Chico, California, 1984, pg. 35:
"J. ...whoever destroys a single Israelite soul is deemed by Scripture as if he had destroyed a whole world. K. And whoever saves a single Israelite soul is deemed by Scripture as if he had saved a whole world."
Talmud Bavli, The Schottenstein Edition, The Art Scroll Series, Published by Mesorah Publications, ltd. Brooklyn, New York, 1993 Tractate Sanhedrin, pg. 37a3:
"...that whoever destroys a single life from Israel is considered by Scripture as if he had destroyed an entire world; and that whoever preserves a single life from Israel is considered by Scripture as if he had preserved an entire world."
This version is translated from "the classic `Romm Edition' of the Talmud, universally known as the Vilna Shas." (pgs. xxvi and xxvii) ("Shas" is a name for the Talmud; see below.) This authoritative and handsome edition presents the Talmud as the very word of God (pg. xxvi), and it does not even mention the universal version used by Spielberg and the gangs of deciet on FFI, in the notes on the text.
Mishnah 4.5, The Talmud of Babylonia XXIII, Bavli Tractate Sanhedrin, by Jacob Neusner, Scholars Press, Atlanta, Georgia, 1994, pg. 183:
"J. ...whoever destroys a single Israelite soul is deemed by Scripture as if he had destroyed a whole world. K. And whoever saves a single Israelite soul is deemed by Scripture as if he had saved a whole world."
-------------------
See ygang, your man made scriptures only care about the Jews, and i'm sure you are very enbarrsaed of that, like those rabbis who wrote the second version of the Talmod after they read the Quran and stole from it to redeem their racist jewish arses
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Hello Muslims brothers and sisters
as you can see, tne gang of deceit are lying to cover their shame
the early version of the Talmod is the version that does not have the Quran quote:
STANDARD TRANSLATIONS OF THE MISHNAH ALONE The Mishnah, translated by Herbert Danby, Oxford University Press, London, 1933, Sanhedrin 4.5, pg. 388:
"...if any man has caused a single soul to perish from Israel Scripture imputes it to him as though he had caused a whole world to perish; and if any man saves alive a single soul from Israel Scripture imputes it to him as though he had saved alive a whole world."
For many years in this century, Danby's Mishnah was the standard English translation of the Mishnah.
Gateway to the Mishnah, by Isidore Fishman, Jack Mazin Ltd, London 1955, Sanhedrin 4.5, pg. 156:
"...he who destroys one human life of Israel, it is accounted to him by Scripture as though he had destroyed a whole universe; and he who saves one human life of Israel, it is accounted to him by Scripture as though he had preserved a whole universe."
The Mishnah; A New Translation, by Jacob Neusner, Yale University Press, New Haven and London, 1988, Sanhedrin 4.5, pg. 591:
"J. ...whoever destroys a single Israelite soul is deemed by Scripture as if he had destroyed a whole world. K. And whoever saves a single Israelite soul is deemed by Scripture as if he had saved a whole world."
-------------------------------
The Talmod writers later on were highly embarrassed because their first Talmod (the early one) is a clear cut racist book where the verses only cares about saving or destroying a JEWISH LIFE
Later on when their rabbis read the Quran, they stole 5:32 from it made it to replace the original and racist statement found in their First Talmod
i.e. they are the thieves who stole from the Quran and included what they stole in heir second verssion Talmod
Status: Age: 34 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 13, 2007
Posts: 68
Post subject:
Brother, I have noticed this post on the FFI Forum but I did not comment on it. These days, I just occasionally check into that forum and just read a few posts. I can never bring myself to go into that forum as extensively as I once did, ever since I was suspended.
But I have noticed that Realist is gone, do you have any idea what happened to him? it was funny reading that scumbag's posts.
i may make a few posts here and there, but overall my time on FFI is finished. I'm retiring
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