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Rigel
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Post subject: Women! Reply with quote  

Hello,

Does islam disallow woman to marry non muslims? people of the books, or the others ?

Thank you
Post Posted:
Sat 08 Dec, 2007 9:30 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Re: Women! Reply with quote  

Rigel wrote:
Hello,

Does islam disallow woman to marry non muslims? people of the books, or the others ?

Thank you



Salam mate

Islam forbids that Muslims being male or female to marry from Al Mushrikoon, and I believe that Ahl Al Kitab should be classified as Mushrikoon

Take care

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Sat 08 Dec, 2007 8:01 pm
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Windsor
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Post subject: Re: Women! Reply with quote  

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Rigel wrote:
Hello,

Does islam disallow woman to marry non muslims? people of the books, or the others ?

Thank you



Salam mate

Islam forbids that Muslims being male or female to marry from Al Mushrikoon, and I believe that Ahl Al Kitab should be classified as Mushrikoon

Take care

Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour disagrees with you brother. He says Muslims can marry non-Muslims, except those who wage war/hate Islam and Muslims.
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Sun 09 Dec, 2007 8:19 am
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Rigel
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Thank you Windsor, I know there are 2 groups of people some agree and some disagree on this. I have not read Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour but I certainly stand with brother AB for uptil now there is no argument by him which I disagree with, except one thats shahada but thats also on technical terms.

Windsor can you please post Dr.Sobhy view on the subject. Meantime I request AB to please tell in detail.

Salam
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Sun 09 Dec, 2007 8:46 am
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IntellectualWarfare1
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I believe that Unitarian Christians can be classified as Ahl Al Kitab and Trinitarians can be classified as Al Mushrikoon. Not all Christians are alike.
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Sun 09 Dec, 2007 8:57 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Re: Women! Reply with quote  

Windsor wrote:
Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour disagrees with you brother.



Salam brother

I actually like and respect Dr Mansour, I have read and continue to read many of his writings in Arabic on his Ahl Al Quran web site, however there are many things that I can't acceot it from him, the only reason for that is simply, the Quran message where is is clear to understand tey he comees with differnt opinion that mostely based on the Feel Good Religion Attitude

Windsor wrote:

He says Muslims can marry non-Muslims, except those who wage war/hate Islam and Muslims.


I believe that he is wrong, I will try to put a Quran comment together today to explain why I believe so

Salam

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Sun 09 Dec, 2007 9:02 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Rigel wrote:
Meantime I request AB to please tell in detail.

Salam



Salam bro

Dr Mansoor is a one of the good guys and I like him, however I stand firm to what I understood from the Quran

I just waked up so I get refreshed and try to put my comment together sometime soon inishaallah

Salam

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Sun 09 Dec, 2007 9:04 am
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AhmedBahgat
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Salam All

It?????????????????????¢??s great that I needed to have a break of my work and write another Quran comment, this is something that I enjoy the most, I really do, because I learn a lot while writing all these comments, my rule are one and is very simple, I only use the Quran to explain itself.

Today subject can be considered two, who are Ahl Al Kitab (the people of the book)? And are the ones who believe in the Quran allowed to marry from them?

While the first question sounds easy, the answer is a bit tricky, this is because any group of people who received a book from Allah must be considered (Ahl Al Kitab), the question in here is WHICH book?, therefore, Ahl Al Kitab terminology (at least) applies to the following groups:

1) The Jews, they are Ahl Al Kitab because they received Al Torah (a book) from Allah
2) The Christians, they are Ahl Al Kitab because they received Al Injil (a book) from Allah
3) The Muslims, they are Ahl Al Kitab because they received Al Quran (a book) from Allah

The only way to differentiate between the above has to be the context of the sentences alone, there will be no other clue to which Ahl Al Kitab that we are talking about BUT THE CONTEXT, for example:

I may be talking about the Jews alone while calling them Ahl Al Kitab

I may also be talking about both the Jews and the Christians while calling them Ahl Al Kitab

As well,. I may be talking about the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims in one sentence while calling all of them Ahl AL Kitab, however for me (the speaker) I have to somehow inform my listeners with what I included in my use of the term (Ahl Al Kitab) or at least there must be a hint in my speech that indicates which group or groups that are included in the term I used in my speech assuming I was trying to pass on some info to my listeners.

The whole thing is not really hard to understand (logically), The Jews received a book from Allah via Moses, many of them either manipulated it or refused to obey it, so Allah sent to them another book via another prophet (Isa), they rejected it however other humans believed in it, then the whole thing happened again, many of the Christians also manipulated their book as well refused to follow it so Allah sent to the Jews and the Christians (and all humanity for that matter) the final message in a final book called (Al Quran), and again the same thing happened, some of the Jews and the Christians believed in the message while many rejected it, on the other hand, some of the ones who believed in the Quran yet manipulated their religion (the same old satan thingy as you know) but those confused Muslims could not manipulate it via manipulating Al Quran, rather via a man made third party that they called it as divine as Al Quran and injected it into the religion somehow over the years, SEE, it is not like Allah will allow the humans to always corrupt the physical message then He sends another book via another message till the JD, it makes no sense such way also allowing them to corrupt a few message is logicall if we consider it that Allah planned for them to catch them red handed corrupting His some of His messages, however there must be an end to sending the messages via messengers, we should expect though that the ultimate end (the JD) is not too far from the end of the final message we should also expect that the final message can not be corrupted as the previous messages.

Beacuse Al Quran is a final message to all humanity, then any human who read Al Quran (regardless they believed in it or not) must be from among those of Ahl Al Kitab, and in this context I mean by the people of the book is (Al Quran), i.e. the ones who received Al Quran. the Quran carried a specific message to the following groups:

A) Ahl Al Kitab, the people of the Book (the Jews only) who received Al Taurat
B) Ahl Al Kitab, the people of the Book (the Christians only) who received Al Injil
C) Ahl Al Kitab, the people of the Book (the Jews & the Chrsitains) who received Al Taurat & Al Injil

Some message were specifically for them and to each group as the context indicated, for example:

The following context can only mean (the Christians):

Certainly they disbelieved who said: Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium. Say: Who then could control anything against Allah if He wished to destroy the Messiah son of Marium and his mother and all those on the earth? And to Allah is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them; He creates what He desires; and Allah is able to do every thing,

[The Quran ; 5:17]

لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَآلُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ قُلْ فَمَن يَمْلِكُ مِنَ اللّهِ شَيْئًا إِنْ أَرَادَ أَن يُهْلِكَ الْمَسِيحَ ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ وَأُمَّهُ وَمَن فِي الأَرْضِ جَمِيعًا وَلِلّهِ مُلْكُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا بَيْنَهُمَا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء وَاللّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ (17)

-> See: Certainly they disbelieved who said: Allah-- He is the Messiah, son of Marium, there is no doubt that only the confused Christians are the ones who claim that Jesus is God. You may take note that they were described as Kafiroon (disbelievers), however they also committed shirk by disbelieving as I will explain later on.

Again, the Christians who allege that Isa is god or one in three MUST BE DISBELIEVERS,

72: Certainly they disbelieved who said: Allah, He is the Messiah, son of Marium; and the Messiah said: O Children of Israel! Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Surely whoever associates (others) with Allah, then Allah has forbidden to him the garden, and his abode is the fire; and there shall be no helpers for the unjust.

73: Certainly they disbelieved who said: Allah is the third of a three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful suffering shall befall those among them who disbelieved.

[The Quran ; 5:72-73]

لَقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ هُوَ الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَقَالَ الْمَسِيحُ يَا بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ اعْبُدُواْ اللّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ إِنَّهُ مَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدْ حَرَّمَ اللّهُ عَلَيهِ الْجَنَّةَ وَمَأْوَاهُ النَّارُ وَمَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ أَنصَارٍ (72)
لَّقَدْ كَفَرَ الَّذِينَ قَالُواْ إِنَّ اللّهَ ثَالِثُ ثَلاَثَةٍ وَمَا مِنْ إِلَهٍ إِلاَّ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ وَإِن لَّمْ يَنتَهُواْ عَمَّا يَقُولُونَ لَيَمَسَّنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (73)

-> And we know well that only the Christians who allege such lies, either Isa is god or god is one in three.

Because the Christians were flawed by alleging such lie about Isa, Allah sent them a specific message while calling them Ahl Al Kitab, i.e. the context of Ahl Al Kitab in the following verse must be, the Christians only:

O people of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

[The Quran ; 4:171]

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لاَ تَغْلُواْ فِي دِينِكُمْ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ إِلاَّ الْحَقِّ إِنَّمَا الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ رَسُولُ اللّهِ وَكَلِمَتُهُ أَلْقَاهَا إِلَى مَرْيَمَ وَرُوحٌ مِّنْهُ فَآمِنُواْ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَلاَ تَقُولُواْ ثَلاَثَةٌ انتَهُواْ خَيْرًا لَّكُمْ إِنَّمَا اللّهُ إِلَهٌ وَاحِدٌ سُبْحَانَهُ أَن يَكُونَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَات وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ وَكِيلاً (171)

-> See how Ahl Al Kitab above can only mean the Christians; it can never include the Jews nor the Muslims because neither of them alleged that Jesus is one god of three

Here is a context of Ahl Al Kitab that mean both the Jews and the Christians:

65: And if the people of the Book had believed and guarded (against evil) We would certainly have covered their evil deeds and We would certainly have made them enter gardens of bliss

66: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do

[The Quran ; 5:65-66]

وَلَوْ أَنَّ أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ آمَنُواْ وَاتَّقَوْاْ لَكَفَّرْنَا عَنْهُمْ سَيِّئَاتِهِمْ وَلأدْخَلْنَاهُمْ جَنَّاتِ النَّعِيمِ (65)
وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ أَقَامُواْ التَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيهِم مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ لأكَلُواْ مِن فَوْقِهِمْ وَمِن تَحْتِ أَرْجُلِهِم مِّنْهُمْ أُمَّةٌ مُّقْتَصِدَةٌ وَكَثِيرٌ مِّنْهُمْ سَاء مَا يَعْمَلُونَ (66)

-> See, And if the people of the Book had believed and guarded (against evil) We would certainly have covered their evil deeds and We would certainly have made them enter gardens of bliss , then: And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course

The Quarn is full of specific messages to Ahl Al Kitab from (among the Christians and the Jews), in many locations they were clearly described as being DISBELIEVERS, i.e. they rejected the final message that was sent to them via the last messenger, the following verse clearly shows that Mohammed carried a special message to Ahl Al Kitab from among the Jews and the Christians:

O people of the Book! Indeed Our messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.

[The Quran ; 5:19]

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ جَاءكُمْ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمْ عَلَى فَتْرَةٍ مِّنَ الرُّسُلِ أَن تَقُولُواْ مَا جَاءنَا مِن بَشِيرٍ وَلاَ نَذِيرٍ فَقَدْ جَاءكُم بَشِيرٌ وَنَذِيرٌ وَاللّهُ عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْءٍ قَدِيرٌ (19)

-> See how the Quran has a message of good news and a waring to Ahl Al Kitab from among the Jews and the Christians: O people of the Book! Indeed Our messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, i.e. Ahl Al Kitab from among the Jews and the Christians who heard the message of the Quran and rejected it will not be able to use such excuse that they received non because indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner

The Quran that is sent to all humanity carried a special message specifically for Ahl Al Kitab from among the Jews and the Christians (the least):

O people of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;

[The Quran ; 5:15]

يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ قَدْ جَاءكُمْ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمْ كَثِيرًا مِّمَّا كُنتُمْ تُخْفُونَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَيَعْفُو عَن كَثِيرٍ قَدْ جَاءكُم مِّنَ اللّهِ نُورٌ وَكِتَابٌ مُّبِينٌ (15)

->See what was sent to the people of the Book: there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah, see how their books were mentioned earlier Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and that is their books (Taurat and Injil) which is replaced by another book there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah which is Al Quran carried by last messenger Mohammed. Therefore if they reject the Quran message then they must be DISBELIEVERS in the clear message sent to them, ironically the prophet message was that they are DISBELIEVERS in what was sent to them (Taurat & Injeel), yet they also disbelieved in the book (Al Quran) that was sent to finally fix their flaw:

Say: O people of the Book! Why do you disbelieve in the signs of Allah, and Allah is witnessing of what you do.

[The Quran ; 3:98]

قُلْ يَا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ لِمَ تَكْفُرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ شَهِيدٌ عَلَى مَا تَعْمَلُونَ (98)

-> See how the messenger informed them with their disbelief: Say: O people of the Book! Why do you disbelieve in the signs of Allah, and Allah is witnessing of what you do., yet most of them disbelieved the messenger sent to them, but some of them BELIEVED though:

And most surely of the people of the Book there are those who believe in Allah and (in) that which has been revealed to you and (in) that which has been revealed to them, being lowly before Allah; they do not take a small price for the communications of Allah; these it is that have their reward with their Lord; surely Allah is quick in reckoning.

[The Quran ; 3:199]

وَإِنَّ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ لَمَن يُؤْمِنُ بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِمْ خَاشِعِينَ لِلّهِ لاَ يَشْتَرُونَ بِآيَاتِ اللّهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلاً أُوْلَئِكَ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ سَرِيعُ الْحِسَابِ (199)

-> See: And most surely of the people of the Book there are those who believe in Allah and (in) that which has been revealed to you and (in) that which has been revealed to them, i.e. those believers from the people of the book were proper believers in what was sent to them and when the new message arrived they also believed in it, who believe in Allah and (in) that which has been revealed to you , i.e. those from the people of the book who believed in the Quran must be BELIEVERS. however the fact remains that they were believers in their previous books that is why they have to be called as people of the book, but that is an ex title, or at least now they are from other the people of the book which is Al Quran

The other concrete fact for those from among Ahl Al Kitab who REJECTED the message that they are DISBELIVERS bound to hell:

Surely those who disbelieved from among the people of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.

[The Quran ; 98:6]

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَالْمُشْرِكِينَ فِي نَارِ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ شَرُّ الْبَرِيَّةِ (6)

-> See: Surely those who disbelieved from among the people of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein, they are also called: they are the worst of men., IT IS SILLY BY SOME MUSLIMS TO SUGGEST THAT ALLAH IS ALLOWING US TO MARRY FROM AHL AL KITAB WHO REFUSED TO BELIEVE IN THE MESSAGE SENT TO THEM AS WELL THEY HAVE BEEN CALLED THE WORST OF MEN BY ALLAH HIMSELF.

Those from Ahl Al Kitab who heard the message of the Quran yet rejected it can not be trusted in a martial relationship, this is because that same person you just married totally rejects your belief, the important point is your belief is also connected to their belief according to the Quran, it is not two separate issues from the believers perspective, however from those from them who reject Al Quran, it has to be two separate religions while considering yours is the false one, this is enough not to trust any of them in a martial relationship, in fact those from Ahl Al Kitab who DISBELIEVED in the Quran message will never want good to befall on those who believed in the Quran:

Those who disbelieved from among the people of the Book do not wish, nor do the polytheists, that some good should be sent down to you from your Lord, and Allah chooses for His mercy whom He wishes, and Allah is the Lord of the mighty grace.

[The Quran ; 2:105]

مَّا يَوَدُّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْكِتَابِ وَلاَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ أَن يُنَزَّلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ خَيْرٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ وَاللّهُ يَخْتَصُّ بِرَحْمَتِهِ مَن يَشَاء وَاللّهُ ذُو الْفَضْلِ الْعَظِيمِ (105)

-> See: Those who disbelieved from among the people of the Book do not wish, nor do the polytheists, that some good should be sent down to you from your Lord,, how can we trust such DISBELIEVERS in a martial relationship?

From all the above, there is no doubt that those from among Ahl Al Kitab (the people of the book) who rejected the final message in the Quran are promised with great suffering in hell, they were clearly described as the worst of men as well Kafiroon (DISBELIEVRS), however I also accuse them of SHIRK, I?????????????????????¢??m basing my accusation on 14:22, let me elaborate:

If Allah tells us to do something and Satan tells us to do the opposite, for example:

A) Allah says Isa is not a son of god nor God is one in three
B) Satan says Isa is the son of god who is also a god in three

Now for the people who heard both messages above and went of option B then THEY SHIRKED: i.e. in the process of their Kufr (rejecting Allah message) they also SHIRKED by obeying another one who commands the opposite to what Allah commands, in fact I believe that all Kafiroon on earth are also Mushrikoon, I don?????????????????????¢??t consider Satan a Mushrik though, he can?????????????????????¢??t be, Satan can only be a Kafir and you should know that every Mushrik is a Kafir but not every Kafir is a Mushrik, both however share the eternal suffering in hell unless Allah wishes otherwise of course, the following verse clearly tells is that Satan himself will expose those (as Mushrikoon) who listened to him while he was saying the opposite to what Allah said:

And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders; surely I disbelieved in Whom you associated me with before; surely it is the unjust that shall have the painful punishment.

[The Quran ; 14:22]

وَقَالَ الشَّيْطَانُ لَمَّا قُضِيَ الأَمْرُ إِنَّ اللّهَ وَعَدَكُمْ وَعْدَ الْحَقِّ وَوَعَدتُّكُمْ فَأَخْلَفْتُكُمْ وَمَا كَانَ لِيَ عَلَيْكُم مِّن سُلْطَانٍ إِلاَّ أَن دَعَوْتُكُمْ فَاسْتَجَبْتُمْ لِي فَلاَ تَلُومُونِي وَلُومُواْ أَنفُسَكُم مَّا أَنَاْ بِمُصْرِخِكُمْ وَمَا أَنتُمْ بِمُصْرِخِيَّ إِنِّي كَفَرْتُ بِمَآ أَشْرَكْتُمُونِ مِن قَبْلُ إِنَّ الظَّالِمِينَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ (22)

-> 14:22 is a future event on the JD, it will happen after the judgment is settled, when those who obeyed Satan will blame him : And the Shaitan shall say after the affair is decided: Surely Allah promised you the promise of truth, and I gave you promises, then failed to keep them to you, and I had no authority over you, except that I called you and you obeyed me, therefore do not blame me but blame yourselves: I cannot be your aider (now) nor can you be my aiders , then Satan will tell them the fact that he is a Kafir and they are Mushrikoon: إِنِّي كَفَرْتُ بِمَآ أَشْرَكْتُمُونِ مِن قَبْلُ Inni Kafart Bima ASHRAKTMON Min Qabl, i.e. surely I disbelieved in Whom you associated me with before, what Satan is saying that he is is also in deep trouble because he disbelieved in Allah, the One Whom they associated him with by obeying him in what he said which was the opposite to what Allah said, very clear, I believe that most translation are flawed regarding 14:22

There is not doubt that those from Ahh Al Kitab who DISBELIEVED after hearing the message from Allah must be Mushrikoon because they obeyed Satan in (not obeying Allah message), therefore the following verse must apply to them:

And do not marry the women who are polytheists until they believe, and indeed she who is a believing slave is better than she who is a polytheist, even if you are attracted to her (the polytheist); and do not marry the men who are polytheists until they believe, and indeed he who is a believing slave is better than he who is a polytheist, even if you are attracted to him (the polytheist); these (the polytheists) invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and the forgiveness by His permission, and He explains His signs to the people that they may be remember.

[The Quran ; 2:221]

وَلاَ تَنكِحُواْ الْمُشْرِكَاتِ حَتَّى يُؤْمِنَّ وَلأَمَةٌ مُّؤْمِنَةٌ خَيْرٌ مِّن مُّشْرِكَةٍ وَلَوْ أَعْجَبَتْكُمْ وَلاَ تُنكِحُواْ الْمُشِرِكِينَ حَتَّى يُؤْمِنُواْ وَلَعَبْدٌ مُّؤْمِنٌ خَيْرٌ مِّن مُّشْرِكٍ وَلَوْ أَعْجَبَكُمْ أُوْلَئِكَ يَدْعُونَ إِلَى النَّارِ وَاللّهُ يَدْعُوَ إِلَى الْجَنَّةِ وَالْمَغْفِرَةِ بِإِذْنِهِ وَيُبَيِّنُ آيَاتِهِ لِلنَّاسِ لَعَلَّهُمْ يَتَذَكَّرُونَ (221)

-> See : And do not marry the women who are polytheists until they believe, clearly the condition to marry from them is when they BELIEVE, i.e. they must be believers, i.e. they must believe in the Quran if they heard it, how come a Muslim partner will marry a Kafir or a Mushrik while that Kafir or Mushrik never heard of Islam?, it does not make sense, yet if it is the case then the Muslim partner should explain the message of Islam to them and wait to see if he/she will believe in it and if they do then the Muslim can marry such person until they believe, the message is so strong that it warns the believing men from marrying from among such Mushrikaat women even if we like them: and indeed she who is a believing slave is better than she who is a polytheist, even if you are attracted to her (the polytheist); , clearly a believing slave is put in a higher position than a Mushrik women, in fact if you remember 98:6, those from among Ahl Al Kitab who reject belief are called the worst of men.

-> Same law applies to the believing women: and do not marry the men who are polytheists until they believe, and indeed he who is a believing slave is better than he who is a polytheist, even if you are attracted to him (the polytheist);

-> A compelling reason was given to the believers to why not to marry from such people: these (the polytheists) invite to the fire, and Allah invites to the garden and the forgiveness by His permission,, indeed they must be inviting to hell, this is because they themselves rejected the invitation by Allah to the garden and the forgiveness, how come such partner can help you in your daily struggle to refine and increase your belief in Allah before one hell of a distressful day where every thing you said and did will be held against you?

The problem with those feel good religion advocates from the confused Muslims who allege that the believers are allowed to marry from the unbelievers who heard the Quran message and rejected it, is their misunderstanding of the following verse:

This day (all) the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their dowries, taking (them) in marriage, not fornicating nor taking them for paramours in secret; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

[The Quran ; 5:5]

الْيَوْمَ أُحِلَّ لَكُمُ الطَّيِّبَاتُ وَطَعَامُ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ حِلٌّ لَّكُمْ وَطَعَامُكُمْ حِلُّ لَّهُمْ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنَاتِ وَالْمُحْصَنَاتُ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَابَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ إِذَا آتَيْتُمُوهُنَّ أُجُورَهُنَّ مُحْصِنِينَ غَيْرَ مُسَافِحِينَ وَلاَ مُتَّخِذِي أَخْدَانٍ وَمَن يَكْفُرْ بِالإِيمَانِ فَقَدْ حَبِطَ عَمَلُهُ وَهُوَ فِي الآخِرَةِ مِنَ الْخَاسِرِينَ (5)

-> The verse above was time framed to a specific day, see how it starts: This day, i.e. from today onwards, the good things are allowed to you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them, I believe the problem arose when Islam emerged as a new religion on that day, Islam was conflicting with exiting religions regarding the BELIEF, this might caused some confusion between the believers to what is lawful regarding Ahl Al Kitab, so the verse is telling us that from that day onwards all the good food that they eat or we eat is lawful to both of us and them, also there must be at the time many martial relationships between some who believed and others who are yet to believe (logical with any new message of course), the verse in no way allows marrying those from among Ahl Al Kitab who insist on rejecting the message after they heard it when it said: and the chaste from among the believing women and the chaste from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you). in fact if you look how the verse is ending you should recognise that those unbelievers have no option but to believe: and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers., THERE IS NO WAY THAT THE BELIVERS ARE ALLOWED TO MARRY LOSERS BY ALLAH.

5:5 is nothing but solving an existing problem at the time between those who believed and were in existing relationships with those from Ahl Al Kitab who are yet to believe, and indeed many of them believed and the relationships continued, let?????????????????????¢??s look at this verse:

You were the best of folks emerged for the people; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah; and if the people of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; of them are the believers and most of them are the transgressors.

[The Quran ; 3:110]

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللّهِ وَلَوْ آمَنَ أَهْلُ الْكِتَابِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًا لَّهُم مِّنْهُمُ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ (110)

-> See the believers are described as : You were the best of folks emerged for the people; you enjoin what is right and forbid the wrong and believe in Allah, for Ahl Al Kitab however, they need to believe in the same God like us: and if the people of the Book had believed it would have been better for them; indeed some of them do believe in Allah like us: of them are the believers, i.e. they accepted the message that WAS SENT TO THEM SPECIFICALLY IN THE QURAN, i.e they believed in Al Quran, however most of Ahl Al Kitab who refused to believe in Al Injil and its messenger Isa (the Jews), and those who allege that Isa is the son of god or god is one in three (the Christians) and those who refuse to believe in Al Quran and its messenger (the Jews and the Christians) CAN NEVER BE CALLED BELIEVERS like us: and most of them are the transgressors., the word ?????????????????????¢??most?????????????????????¢???????????????????????¢?????????????????????? in here does not mean that not all of them now days are as such, this is because the verse covers those among them who lived before the message of Islam was sent, i.e. there were some of them who believed properly in Judaism and Christianity before Islam was sent and they have to be included in the above verse, i.e. STATING THE FACT THAT ALL THE JEWS AND CHRISTIAINS (ALIVE today) are DISBELIEVERS and TRANSGRESSORS regarding the God, does not contradict the words SOME OF THEM the believers in 3:110.

Salam


Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Tue 19 Aug, 2008 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Posted:
Sun 09 Dec, 2007 2:00 pm
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Windsor
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Post subject: Reply with quote  

Rigel wrote:
Thank you Windsor, I know there are 2 groups of people some agree and some disagree on this. I have not read Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour but I certainly stand with brother AB for uptil now there is no argument by him which I disagree with, except one thats shahada but thats also on technical terms.

Windsor can you please post Dr.Sobhy view on the subject. Meantime I request AB to please tell in detail.

Salam

Peace be upon you Rigel.

Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour has not written his research yet on this subject. But briefly, he says that according to verse 5:5, Muslims (Males and females) can marry non-Muslims. He also says that the word Muslim has 2 meanings;

Muslim = Peaceful/Submitter
Muslim = One who believes in Islam

So you Rigel, are a Muslim and can marry my sister for instance, as long as you are peaceful to Muslims.

He also says the word disbeliever ( Commonly known in Arabic as "Kafir" or sometimes "Mushrik") may refer to those who invoke injustice in the lands and wage war/hate Muslims.

As I said, he hasn't published his research on this subject yet. I will try to bring it here when he publishes it God Willing.
Post Posted:
Sun 09 Dec, 2007 5:21 pm
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Post subject: Re: Women! Reply with quote  

AhmedBahgat wrote:
Windsor wrote:
Dr. Ahmed Sobhy Mansour disagrees with you brother.



Salam brother

I actually like and respect Dr Mansour, I have read and continue to read many of his writings in Arabic on his Ahl Al Quran web site, however there are many things that I can't acceot it from him, the only reason for that is simply, the Quran message where is is clear to understand tey he comees with differnt opinion that mostely based on the Feel Good Religion Attitude

I agree with your first statement. In my opinion he is the most knowledgeable Muslim scholar today, and he is the reason why I accepted the Quran alone message. I however tend to disagree with your second statement. He is a very experienced and honest scholar and genuinely believes in his opinions, and usually backs them up with Quranic evidences.

Peace.
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Post subject: Re: Women! Reply with quote  

Windsor wrote:
I agree with your first statement. In my opinion he is the most knowledgeable Muslim scholar today, and he is the reason why I accepted the Quran alone message. I however tend to disagree with your second statement. He is a very experienced and honest scholar and genuinely believes in his opinions, and usually backs them up with Quranic evidences.

Peace.


Hello

The issue is not to agree that he is a good/knowldgable perosn or not, the issue is to agree on what he claimed regarding the his claim that believers can marry unbelievers or not and I disagree with his claims and yet to see him backing it up using the Quran alone

Salam

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Sun 09 Dec, 2007 6:56 pm
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Jew/Christian are people of book and in my opinion believers too but their domain is different, now when POB meet muslim they discuss faith, now if POB reject quran, then POB becomes unbeliever. Shall I conclude that POB are believers BUT if they come across Quran they have 2 options to accept or reject. Once they reject they become unbelievers ?
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Rigel wrote:
Jew/Christian are people of book and in my opinion believers too but their domain is different, now when POB meet muslim they discuss faith, now if POB reject quran, then POB becomes unbeliever. Shall I conclude that POB are believers BUT if they come across Quran they have 2 options to accept or reject. Once they reject they become unbelievers ?



You may call them believers but after you find out if they really follow their books properly, I believe that they are not even believers to what was sent to them

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SITUATION CRITICAL!

Hello all,

Sometime before hajj this year I was chatting with muslim fellow member of fi, who happens to be in love with a christan girl and he told me that he intends to marry her soon. My friend went to hajj happy happy and just returned to read FI. lol!!! Very sorry but I think you should explain once more this issue of marrying people of the book. Becasue my friend is still confused and speechless now.
Due to privacy I cant name the member.

salam
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Thu 27 Dec, 2007 2:24 am
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Rigel wrote:
SITUATION CRITICAL!

Hello all,

Sometime before hajj this year I was chatting with muslim fellow member of fi, who happens to be in love with a christan girl and he told me that he intends to marry her soon. My friend went to hajj happy happy and just returned to read FI. lol!!! Very sorry but I think you should explain once more this issue of marrying people of the book. Becasue my friend is still confused and speechless now.
Due to privacy I cant name the member.

salam



It's really simple mate

if his miss calls jesus the son of god or god, then she is Mushrikah, and if she does not while rejecting Mohammed then she is a Kafirah and in both cases he should not marry here according to the Quran until she believes

Cheers

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