Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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Post subject: Al Aalameen (the worlds) or Al Aalimeen (the knowledgeable)
This is part of a small debate that I had on FFI
Salam all
I would like to elaborate regarding the words Aalameen with a Fatha on the lam and Aalimeen with a Kasrah on the lam, I believe I might have been misunderstood by a few, I stated earlier that the word Aalameen with a Fatha on the lam which mean (worlds) can�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t fit in the verse about the mercy sent 21:107, and I expressed that in such context of the verse, it has to be pronounced Aalimeen i.e. the knowledgeable, I would like to fine tune my understating as follow:
While there is no doubt that the word Aalim means knowledgeable, its use in the Quran implies a few other meanings, let me just say that a non common meaning as understood by many is: the worlds, now IÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??m not disputing that, this is due to the flexibility of the Arabic language of driving new words from 3 letters words. In many verses it can only mean (the worlds), most of these verse talk about: Rab Al Aalameen, i.e. The Lord or the worlds, 42 of these verses, but these two words Rab Al Aalameen donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t appear in the verse about the mercy sent 21:107: وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاك إِلَّا رَحْمَة لِلْعَالَمِين, see, no Rab word in there, therefore it will be rather silly to take the word عَالَمِين in 21:107 as the same when we read Rab Al Aalameen, this is because Mohammed was not sent to the worlds, rather to the earth alone and yet not to every creature on earth, including the earth itself, for example Mohammed was not sent to the birds, nor to the seas, nor to the rats, nor to the lions, nor to the plants, nor to the earth (an all other planets and stars for that matter) and most certainly nor to the angels who are also an important part of the Worlds. Mohammed was only sent to one or two type of creatures the max, the humans, or the humans and the jinn, what is common between these two creatures is the accountability on the JD, it seems that both were given something Ã??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??a brainÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??, so they can make decisions with some limited freewill given hence the accountability on the JD, the Quran never told us that any other creature will be held accountable except these two (the humans and the jinn).
Therefore to take the mercy in verse 21:107 as if it includes all other creatures, (assuming the word is Al Aalameen and not Al Aalimeen) are nothing but non sense and has no merit nor it bears any logic, I believe the hadith worshippers misunderstood this verse (deliberately) to boast their idol worshipping of Mohammed, clear as light.
If I want to refine my understanding to the word عَالَمِين as stated in the Quran, then it has to be -at least- referring to those two creatures, those two who have brains and at least KNOW that they may be held accountable, it is not like those who NEVER KNEW about the message of God that they will be held accountable by God. It makes no sense.
Therefore the best understanding to the word عَالَمِين , is those from among the humans and the jinn (regardless being believers or not) who KNOW the message that was sent, hence their name of (Al Aalimeen), i.e. the ones who know
Now, my argument that the word Rab is not in the verse 21:107 is more than enough to demolish the understanding of those who support such flawed understanding of such verse that Mohammed was sent as a mercy to the worlds, but you know me well guys, this is not enough for me, I have to totally demolish it and here is how I do it:
Note: I will use Shakir translation without correcting it, unless it is a verse that was already translated by me, then I will use my translation, I only finished up to sura 4 btw:
And among men is he who says: We believe in Allah; but when he is persecuted in (the way of) Allah he thinks the persecution of men to be as the chastisement of Allah; and if there come assistance from your Lord, they would most certainly say: Surely we were with you. What! is not Allah the best knower of what is in the breasts of mankind. [The Quran ; 29:10]
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَقُولُ آمَنَّا بِاللَّهِ فَإِذَا أُوذِيَ فِي اللَّهِ جَعَلَ فِتْنَةَ النَّاسِ كَعَذَابِ اللَّهِ وَلَئِن جَاء نَصْرٌ مِّن رَّبِّكَ لَيَقُولُنَّ إِنَّا كُنَّا مَعَكُمْ أَوَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ بِأَعْلَمَ بِمَا فِي صُدُورِ الْعَالَمِينَ (10)
-> The verse above is simply telling us that : of the people are those who claim to believe but when he/she is hit with misfortune or harm they donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t believe that it is from Allah, so the verse ended by telling us that Allah knows what is inside them in a sort of metaphor, letÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??s see how it was said: أَوَلَيْسَ اللَّهُ بِأَعْلَمَ بِمَا فِي صُدُورِ الْعَالَمِينَ , Aw Laysa Allah Aalam Bima Fi Sidur Al Aalimeen, which means as translated by Shakir: What! is not Allah the best knower of what is in the breasts of mankind. , definitely the word Sidur (breasts) can only apply to those who are accountable, and as you can see how Shakir translated it as the breasts of mankind., this must be wrong by him, it should be the breasts of those who know, please be aware that, under this translation (knowledgeable) it should cover the humans and the jinn (not in that specific event which the verse above is talking about) rather in general, i.e. Allah knows who is truthful and who is not, this truthfulness or hypocrisy that Allah knows should only apply to the ones who have been given limited freewill, i.e. those who heard the message then inside their breasts (they had the choice to either believe or reject), yet they know the message because they heard it, like many kafirs on FFI, they are Aalimeen of the message of the Quran, i.e. they know the message, it does not matter they believe it or not yet they KNOW it
In the same sura, Allah is telling us that the miracle of Noah was made a sign to Al Aalimeen:
So We delivered him and the inmates of the ark, and made it a sign to the nations. [The Quran ; 29:15]
فَأَنجَيْنَاهُ وَأَصْحَابَ السَّفِينَةِ وَجَعَلْنَاهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ (15)
-> See: وَجَعَلْنَاهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ , Wa Jaalnaha Aya Lil Aalimeen, it was translated by Shakir wrong again, as well he contradicted himself: and made it a sign to the nations., again it has to be as follow: and We made it a sign for those who know., i.e. it is a sign for those who KNOW about Noah (at least), it canÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t be a sign for those who never heard about him, I say it should also cover the Jinn who happen to know about Noah as well. This makes sense because it is a sign to make those who will be held accountable to BELIEVE, most certainly it is not a sign to prove that Allah can do it, rather for us to fear His punishment and believe.
Clear that the meaning of the worlds can never fit in the verses above.
Another verse from the same sura, but about prophet Lut this time:
And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: Most surely you are guilty of an indecency which none of the nations has ever done before you; [The Quran ; 29:28]
وَلُوطًا إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّنَ الْعَالَمِينَ (28)
-> See: مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّنَ الْعَالَمِينَ , Ma Sabakaqum Biha Min Ahad Min Al Aalimeen, and as Shakir translated is: none of the nations has ever done before you , now this should be covering humans only because it can not be covering other creatures that Lut is not aware of, in fact other creatures like the Hyenas and Monkeys commit homosexuality almost every day, see how Shakir translated it as Nations, well, it should be those who know, i.e. the ones who at least KNOW that it is not right to do so. Or at the max it should only cover all humanity before them; it can never cover the whole Worlds.
Can you see that so far we have never seen the word Rab before the word Al Aalimeen, that is why Shakir never translated it as the worlds, remember that in the mercy verse we don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t also read the word Rab before Al Aalimeen
Let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s move on, this time I will present a verse yet from the same sura but the vowel of the word Al Aalimeen is Marfoo3 (with a waw):
And (as for) these examples, We set them forth for men, and none understand them but the learned. [The Quran ; 29:43]
وَتِلْكَ الْأَمْثَالُ نَضْرِبُهَا لِلنَّاسِ وَمَا يَعْقِلُهَا إِلَّا الْعَالِمُونَ (43)
-> See how Shakir contradicted himself again, this time he actually is closer to the right meaning of the word: وَمَا يَعْقِلُهَا إِلَّا الْعَالِمُونَ , Wa Ma Yaqilha Illa Al Aalimoon, as translated by him: and none understand them but the learned., i.e. regarding the examples that Allah explained in the Quran, none understand them but the ones who know., i.e the ones who know that those parables are from Allah.
So far we have seen the words Aalimeen & Aalimoon to mean the ones who know, remember that I stated in an earlier comment that there are 3 words can mean the knowledgeable, the third one is Ulamaa, let me show you an example from the Quran:
And of men and beasts and cattle are various species of it likewise; those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah; surely Allah is Mighty, Forgiving. [The Quran ; 35:28]
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ وَالدَّوَابِّ وَالْأَنْعَامِ مُخْتَلِفٌ أَلْوَانُهُ كَذَٰلِكَ ۗ إِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ ۗ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ غَفُورٌ
-> See, ِنَّمَا يَخْشَى اللَّهَ مِنْ عِبَادِهِ الْعُلَمَاءُ , Innama Yakhsha Allaha Min Ibadihi Al Ulamaao, as translated by Shakir: those of His servants only who are possessed of knowledge fear Allah , which means that those who have no knowledge do not fear Allah, which means that not every creature in the worlds fear Allah. If that is so logical to understand while at the same time is not an offence against Allah to say because He already said it in 35:28, why then the hadith worshippers get offended when you explain to them that logically Mohammed can not be sent as a mercy to the worlds, i.e. to every creature, rather to those who know about him as well know that he must be a messenger from Allah. For those who know about him yet rejected him, Mohammed can not be a mercy to them, rather a curse to them, because had not Allah sent him, they would not be punished for their disbelief, so because Mohammed was sent and they heard his message and rejected it, then what Mohammed said should happen, which means that the will go to hell, i.e. Mohammed is a curse for them, not a mercy, logically speaking of course.
In the next verse I will bring the common three translations so you see for yourself how they were confused about it:
YUSUFALI: Blessed is He who sent down the criterion to His servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures;-
PICKTHAL: Blessed is He Who hath revealed unto His slave the Criterion (of right and wrong), that he may be a warner to the peoples.
SHAKIR: Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan upon His servant that he may be a warner to the nations; [The Quran ; 25:1]
تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْفُرْقَانَ عَلَى عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيرًا (1)
-> Allah is telling us in 25:1 that the Quran which was sent down, is used by the prophet as a warning to Al Aalimeen, see it canÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t be Al Aalameen (the worlds), because the Quran is only a warning to those who will be held accountable, it canÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t be a warning to the earth, nor the heavens nor the angels nor the plants nor the animals, at least a warning to the humans, but we also know that the Quran may be a warning to the Jinn, indeed some of the Jinn believed in it according to the Quran, those Jinn heard the Quran, i.e. they knew of it, i.e. they were knowledgeable, rejecting or accepting the message of the Quran does not affect the fact that they heard it and they KNOW it, i.e. they are knowledgeable, i.e. they are Aalimeen, see, 25:1 is another compelling evidence, because the Quran cannot be a warning to those who never heard of it, i.e. to those who donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t know it, see what 25:1 is telling us: لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيرًا , Li Yakoona Lil Aalimeen Nazira, i.e. the Quran is a warning to Al Aalimeen, i.e the Quran is a warning to those who heard it, i.e. the Quran is a warning to those who know it, i.e. the Quran is a warning to the knowledgeable, see what all translators above did regarding the word Aalimeen:
YUSUFALI:All creatures, wrong because the Quran is not a warning to the earth nor the heavens nor the animals neither the plants, etc
PICKTHAL:The people, wrong, because the Quran is not a warning to the people who never heard of it, i.e. they don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know it at all, i.e. they are not knowledgeable.
SHAKIR:the nations, same as the argument against PICKTHAL, the Quran can not be a warning to the nations who never heard of it, i.e. they don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know it at all, i.e. they are not knowledgeable.
The best translation as far as I believe to the above verse should be as follow:
Blessed is the One Who sent down the Furqan (The Quran) upon His slave that he may be to those who know, a warner. [The Quran ; 25:1]
تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْفُرْقَانَ عَلَى عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيرًا (1)
A similar example to the above verse is 6:90, this time you should witness clearly how silly all those translators have been:
YUSUFALI: Those were the (prophets) who received Allah's guidance: Copy the guidance they received; Say: "No reward for this do I ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations.
PICKTHAL: Those are they whom Allah guideth, so follow their guidance. Say (O Muhammad, unto mankind): I ask of you no fee for it. Lo! it is naught but a Reminder to (His) creatures.
SHAKIR: These are they whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. Say: I do not ask you for any reward for it; it is nothing but a reminder to the nations. [The Quran ; 6:90]
أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ (90)
-> Again the verse above is about the message of the Quran which was the main role for the prophet to deliver and explain if required, the verse above is telling us that the Quran is a reminder to Al Aalimeen, إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ , In Hua Illa Zikra Lil Aalimeen, see how all three translated the word Aalimeen:
YUSUFALI:the nations, wrong, because the Quran is not a reminder to the nations who never heard of it, i.e. they don�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??t know it at all, i.e. they are not knowledgeable, remember that he translated it in 25:1 as all creatures
PICKTHAL:creatures, wrong because the Quran is not a reminder to the earth nor the heavens nor the animals neither the plants, etc. remember that he translated it in 25:1 as the people
SHAKIR:the nations, same as the argument against Yusuf Ali, at least Shakir stayed consistent in his mistakes
6:90 should be translated properly as follow:
These are the ones whom Allah guided, therefore follow their guidance. Say: I do not ask you for it any wage; it is nothing but a reminder to those who know. [The Quran ; 6:90]
أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَى اللّهُ فَبِهُدَاهُمُ اقْتَدِهْ قُل لاَّ أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ (90)
A similar example to the above two verses but using the House of Allah this time (The Kaaba), goes like this:
The first house appointed for the people is the one at Bekka, blessed and a guidance for the knowledgeable. [The Quran ; 3:96]
إِنَّ أَوَّلَ بَيْتٍ وُضِعَ لِلنَّاسِ لَلَّذِي بِبَكَّةَ مُبَارَكًا وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ (96)
-> See, the House of Allah can not be a guidance to the earth, nor the heavens neither the animals etc, therefore when we read the following about the House of Allah: وَهُدًى لِّلْعَالَمِينَ , Wa Huda Lil Aalimeen, and a guidance for those who know, it has to be a guidance for those who know about it and go there to follow the guidance, not to those who donÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t give a damn about it and only want to nuke it, see. This is almost identical context to the verse about the mercy sent, the sending of Mohammed is a mercy to those who will follow him. As I said earlier that the sending of Mohammed as a messenger is a curse to those who are arrogant against the message that he carried, i.e. it canÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t be a mercy for them. In fact if Allah didnÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t send Mohammed or any other prophet for that matter, it would have been mercy for them, this is because He decreed upon Himself that He wonÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t punish the people if He didnÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t send messengers carrying His message.
The following example is very interesting, Allah is telling us about Himself, that He is knowledgeable and because Allah uses plural for Himself, instead of calling Himself �?????�????�???�??�?�¢??Aalim�?????�????�???�??�?�¢?? which is singular, He called Himself Aalimeen, I will bring the 3 translations as well to show that all three had no option but to translate it as Knowledgeable:
YUSUFALI: We bestowed aforetime on Abraham his rectitude of conduct, and well were We acquainted with him.
PICKTHAL: And We verily gave Abraham of old his proper course, and We were Aware of him,
SHAKIR: And certainly We gave to Ibrahim his rectitude before, and We knew him fully well. [The Quran ; 21:51]
وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَا إِبْرَاهِيمَ رُشْدَهُ مِن قَبْلُ وَكُنَّا بِه عَالِمِينَ (51)
-> See, Allah is telling us that He was Knowledgeable regarding what happened to Ibrahim, وَكُنَّا بِه عَالِمِينَ , Wa Kunna Bihi Aalimeen, see how all translators did:
YUSUFALI:acquainted, should be ok because acquainted means knowledgeable.
PICKTHAL:Aware, good enough because aware means knowledgeable.
SHAKIR:knew well, wrong because he made the Arabic noun (Aalimeen) a verb (knew).
An identical example to 21:51 is in the same sura, it is verse 21:81, let�?????�????�???�??�?�¢??s have a look, this time I will only bring Shakir:
And (We made subservient) to Sulaiman the wind blowing violent, pursuing its course by his command to the land which We had blessed, and We are knower of all things. [The Quran ; 21:81]
وَلِسُلَيْمَانَ الرِّيحَ عَاصِفَةً تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ إِلَى الْأَرْضِ الَّتِي بَارَكْنَا فِيهَا وَكُنَّا بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَالِمِينَ (81)
-> See, Allah is telling us that He is Knowledgeable with everything, وَكُنَّا بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَالِمِينَ , Wa Kunna Bikul Shai Aalimeen, see how Shakir translated it: and We are knower of all things. , that is interpretation , to really translate this bit, it should be like this: And We are with everything all-Knowing., even if it sounds odd in English, it is the actual word order in Arabic, yet I believe it makes sense and should be understood easily as Allah is knowledgeable with everything.
Here is another example from the story of Yusuf, the staff of the king could not interpret his dream so they told him that they are not knowledgeable with interpreting the dreams:
They said: Confused dreams, and we do not know the interpretation of dreams. [The Quran ; 12:44]
قَالُواْ أَضْغَاثُ أَحْلاَمٍ وَمَا نَحْنُ بِتَأْوِيلِ الأَحْلاَمِ بِعَالِمِينَ (44)
-> See what they said: وَمَا نَحْنُ بِتَأْوِيلِ الأَحْلاَمِ بِعَالِمِينَ , , Wa Ma Nahnu Be Taawil Al Ahlam Bi Aalimeen, Shakir translated it as follow and we do not know the interpretation of dreams. , it should be as follow: and we are not with interpreting the dreams knowledgeable,, if it sounds odd in English then that is fine, this is a clear cut translation to show the reader the order of the Arabic words, and IÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??m sure it is still understood. In Arabic though, it sounds great and very professional regarding the order of the words.
As you have seen above, not even once we read the word Rab in front of Al Aalimeen
The words Rab Al Aalameen, appeared 42 times in the Quran, and in such context I agree that the word Aalameen means all creatures, simply put using the plural of world, i.e. Lord of the worlds
Now compare all what I said above with the mercy verse:
And We did not send you except a mercy to those who know. [The Quran ; 21:107]
وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ إِلَّا رَحْمَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ (107)
-> See how there is no Rab word before Al Aalimeen, i.e. the message sent through Mohammed or any other prophet is nothing but a mercy to the ones who know about it and believe in it, to the contrary, the messages sent with all prophets are a curse to those who know about it and reject it, the same message can not be a mercy nor a curse to those who never knew about it, this is because of the following:
Whoever goes aright, for his own soul does he go aright; and whoever goes astray, to its detriment only does he go astray: nor can the bearer of a burden bear the burden of another, nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger. [The Quran ; 17:15]
مَّنِ اهْتَدَى فَإِنَّمَا يَهْتَدي لِنَفْسِهِ وَمَن ضَلَّ فَإِنَّمَا يَضِلُّ عَلَيْهَا وَلاَ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّى نَبْعَثَ رَسُولاً (15)
-> See: وَمَا كُنَّا مُعَذِّبِينَ حَتَّى نَبْعَثَ رَسُولاً , nor do We chastise until We raise a messenger. , that is why the sending of Mohammed and all other messengers will be mercy to those who will believe in them, and to the contrary they have to be a curse to those who reject them, for those who heard nothing about them, 17:15 is telling us that they canÃ??????Ã?????Ã????Ã???Ã??Ã?¢??t be punished, i.e. the prophets sent can not be a mercy nor a curse to them.
Salam
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Fri 06 Mar, 2009 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Thu 31 Jan, 2008 1:27 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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# hey, bud...r u reading it as "aalameen" (e.g.: in 29:15) and translating it as "knowledgeable", or r u saying that the arabic text itself should read "aalimeen"?
## take care! (-:
Posted:
Mon 04 Feb, 2008 7:38 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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The wrote:
# hey, bud...r u reading it as "aalameen" (e.g.: in 29:15) and translating it as "knowledgeable", or r u saying that the arabic text itself should read "aalimeen"?
## take care! (-:
Sorry for the late reply mate, I was away for 6 days and just arrived 2 hours ago
what I'm saying that in some verses it has to be Aalimeen, i.e. Knowledgable and this should apply tpo 29:15 as far as I believe, because Noah's sign can't not be a sign for those who know nothing about it
Take care
Posted:
Thu 07 Feb, 2008 10:03 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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# cool...does it mean that wherever "aalameen" is used (save for where preceded by "rabb") it should be read as "aalimeen" (knowledgeable)?
## also, could u shed some light on "knowledgeable"? what knowledge do they possess?
thanks, bud...take care! (-:
Posted:
Fri 08 Feb, 2008 5:06 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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# cool...does it mean that wherever "aalameen" is used (save for where preceded by "rabb") it should be read as "aalimeen" (knowledgeable)?
## also, could u shed some light on "knowledgeable"? what knowledge do they possess?
thanks, bud...take care! (-:
Posted:
Fri 08 Feb, 2008 5:08 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The wrote:
# cool...does it mean that wherever "aalameen" is used (save for where preceded by "rabb") it should be read as "aalimeen" (knowledgeable)?
Good morning mate
not at all. It all depends on the context of the sentence where the word is used
One of the kafirs on FFI proposed a very valid proposal, he says can the word be Aalamain, i.e. the dual word of Aalam, which should means the two worlds?, my reply to him was, yes indeed, and in suich case it may possibly means the world of this life and the world of the afterlife, I had no option but to acceot his argument, i will try to find his comment and post it in here inshaallaah
The wrote:
## also, could u shed some light on "knowledgeable"? what knowledge do they possess?
the word knowledgeable regarding any issue may mean the following:
1) knowing the issue
2) thoroughly knowing the issue
for example the kafirs on FFI web site who claim to have read the Quran, are knowledgeable regarding the Quran, i.e. they can't use the excuse on the JD that they never heard about the Quran
on the other hand Muslims like you and me are also knowledeable regarding the Quran, but our knowledge is rooted regarding the message itself, i.e. we may be desribed as Rasikhoon fi Al Ilm, i.e. well established in knowledge
as always, Allah knows best His words
Salam mate
Posted:
Fri 08 Feb, 2008 6:43 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Here it is brother The:
apostasyrus wrote:
Let me propose something, and I say this with recognition of the fact that I know little Arabic if any. What if the word was really meant to be Aalamain, and neither Aalameen nor Aalimeen. i.e. Aalamain sounding like Mashriqain or Maghribain as in Rab ul Mashriqain wal Maghribain?
What you propose above is very interesting and of course have a lot of merit and can be valid, what you are talking about is the dual form, i.e. the two worlds, very valid indeed and if we try to ponder upon it further then it may (possibly) means the world of this life and the world of the afterlife?, well, my only answer is simply, Allah knows His words best and i donlt think that knowing what the word means exactly should affect the matter of belief or disbelief
now let me summarise what we have reached so far:
the following word in letters ) Ain, Alif, Lam, Meem, Yaa, Noon, can be pronounced in three different ways:
1) Al Aalameen = The worlds
2) Al Aalimeen = The Knowledgeable
3) Al Aalamain = The two worlds
Very interesting I have to say, see I learnt something in the Quran from a kafir, what a world
Salam
Posted:
Fri 08 Feb, 2008 6:45 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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I actually had a lil dialogue with the same person, my reply to him above was the second reply after this one:
apostasyrus wrote:
Hello Ahmed.
Hello apostasyrus
apostasyrus wrote:
No sweat. I got perfectly well what you meant. Sorry I have been away a few days.
No worries, I have to fly away for 6 days too, from these 6 days I had 2 days in the air, I just arrived 4 hours ago
apostasyrus wrote:
I am reading your posts and evaluating what you put forward.
You need to so this very well with every Quran comment that I post, that is if you want to get what I put forward
apostasyrus wrote:
However, in the first glance it appears (to me) to be a stretch.
Many appearnces at first glance, most likely are wrong
apostasyrus wrote:
I'd think mercy would be more deserved by the ignorat than the knowledgeable ones,
Of course, have I stated the contrary?
If there is something that I said and implied the above to you then I'm sure you got it wrong, this is because that is what the Quran says and in no way I will say something that contradicts the Quran unless it is a clear cut misttake by myself (i.e. ignorance by myself), now let me show the verse which confirms that the mercy of Allah is more deserved by the ignoraqnt than the knowledgeable when they sin (note: the translation provided is Free-Islam's, which is still in DRAFT mode:
إِنَّمَا التَّوْبَةُ عَلَى اللّهِ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السُّوَءَ بِجَهَالَةٍ ثُمَّ يَتُوبُونَ مِن قَرِيبٍ فَأُوْلَئِكَ يَتُوبُ اللّهُ عَلَيْهِمْ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً (17) Indeed, the repentance with Allah is only for those who do the evil in ignorance, then they turn (to Allah) soon, those are the ones to whom Allah relents, and Allah is all-Knowing, all-Wise. [Al Quran ; 4:17]
-> See above: Indeed, the repentance with Allah is only for those who do the evil in ignorance, but it is not going to be free forever, the moment they are informed that what they do is wrong, (they can't not be ignorant to the sin any more, i.e. they are knowledeable with the sin, therefore the best course of action they should take is to repent and not do it again, see what is said next: then they turn (to Allah) soon, those are the ones to whom Allah relents,
For example, regarding the Kufr (disbelief in Allah) sin, if they never heard the Quran message then they are still ignorant but when they do as all kafirs on this web site, then they can't be ignornat to the sin, and this is what is going to happen to them:
وَلَيْسَتِ التَّوْبَةُ لِلَّذِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ السَّيِّئَاتِ حَتَّى إِذَا حَضَرَ أَحَدَهُمُ الْمَوْتُ قَالَ إِنِّي تُبْتُ الآنَ وَلاَ الَّذِينَ يَمُوتُونَ وَهُمْ كُفَّارٌ أُوْلَئِكَ أَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابًا أَلِيمًا (18) And the repentance is not for those who do the evil until when death comes to one of them, he says: I repent now; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers. These are the ones for whom, We have prepared a painful suffering. [Al Quran ; 4:18]
-> See: And the repentance is not for those who do the evil until when death comes to one of them, he says: I repent now; nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers., the second senetence which I underlined is concerning the Kufr sin, nor (for) those who die while they are unbelievers., i.e. it covers all those kafirs on this web site who claim to have read the Quran (the message), and if they die kafirs then NO MERCY FOR THEM: These are the ones for whom, We have prepared a painful suffering.
Please be aware, the above translation is a draft, there will be some changes for the whole thing when I finish the Quran inshaallah, the last word Suffering which represents the Arabic word Azaab, should be Torture, this is a feedback from kafir Baal, which I totally agree with
apostasyrus wrote:
who by virtue of their knowledge and understanding, would be able to realize and practice what's needed for a less pessimistic afterlife than Islamic hell depicts. To use a crude analogy, one needs a Presidential or Royal pardon (act of mercy) to escape punishment for a crime one commited. A pardon would be out of place for a law-abiding citizen since there isn't a punishment to be waived.
To be honest Pal, I could not understand what you want to say above, possibly I'm still tired from my flight, well, let me tell you, I only had 0 hours sleep since last friday 7 am until I boarded my flight back to sydney in which I slept for about 18 hours continously, glad is was bus class, very comfy indeed but still very tired as you can imagine, I'm actually going to bed now to recover some sleeping hours that I missed
salam
Posted:
Fri 08 Feb, 2008 6:47 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Quote:
apostasyrus wrote:
Let me propose something, and I say this with recognition of the fact that I know little Arabic if any. What if the word was really meant to be Aalamain, and neither Aalameen nor Aalimeen. i.e. Aalamain sounding like Mashriqain or Maghribain as in Rab ul Mashriqain wal Maghribain?
# this is just another instance of "what if..."; misplaced diacriticals might throw the entire quran open to another message: interesting, perhaps...but definitely speculative!
further, v see that wherever the word "aalimeen" is imperative it has been used, e.g. 21:81 and 12:44! to then assume that in verses like 29:15 "aalameen" has been wrongly used in place of "aalimeen" is uncalled for, especially when v can't even formulate an understanding of the "knowledge" that knowledgeable possess! and somehow this reminds me of the new understanding of mecca/becca and djinn that some non-muslims had proposed...no offence!
## take care...bud! (-:
Posted:
Sat 09 Feb, 2008 6:19 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
apostasyrus wrote:
Let me propose something, and I say this with recognition of the fact that I know little Arabic if any. What if the word was really meant to be Aalamain, and neither Aalameen nor Aalimeen. i.e. Aalamain sounding like Mashriqain or Maghribain as in Rab ul Mashriqain wal Maghribain?
The wrote:
# this is just another instance of "what if..."; misplaced diacriticals might throw the entire quran open to another message: interesting, perhaps...but definitely speculative!
Sure, however on my side, I concede that only Allah knows the meaning, I only tried and concluded that it can have many meanings and in such case I will leave it to Allah, I on't chose which one that applies in many verses, however in some verses the word meaning has to be one meaning and that is what I will take for myself
The wrote:
further, v see that wherever the word "aalimeen" is imperative it has been used, e.g. 21:81 and 12:44! to then assume that in verses like 29:15 "aalameen" has been wrongly used in place of "aalimeen" is uncalled for,
ok, why then you convince me that accoring to the context it should mean the worlds and not the knowledgeable?
The wrote:
especially when v can't even formulate an understanding of the "knowledge" that knowledgeable possess! and somehow this reminds me of the new understanding of mecca/becca and djinn that some non-muslims had proposed...no offence!
## take care...bud! (-:
Sure, however, you totally missed that many transltors translated the word as Knowlegeable, please check my long comment again, and in this case I'm not oinventing anything new as those on FM, I'm using the Quran and my Arabic knowledge to try to find out the right meaning, and when I fail I will leavve it to Allah and concede that all those easy to understand verses and the hard ones are from Allah, accoridng to 3:7
there is no question that it is a duty on every Muslim to ponder upon the Quran
Salam
Posted:
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 6:40 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Quote:
Sure, however on my side, I concede that only Allah knows the meaning, I only tried and concluded that it can have many meanings and in such case I will leave it to Allah, I on't chose which one that applies in many verses, however in some verses the word meaning has to be one meaning and that is what I will take for myself
ok, why then you convince me that accoring to the context it should mean the worlds and not the knowledgeable?
# what all would agree on is that "knowledegable" is aalimeen!
aalameen, the plural of aalam, is not the same as aalimeen; nor is "aalamain" the dual of aalim! so, v have nothing to translate aalameen (and aalamain) as knowledgeable, esp given that the correct word for knowledgeable is aalimeen!
Quote:
Sure, however, you totally missed that many transltors translated the word as Knowlegeable, please check my long comment again,
-> Again the verse above is about the message of the Quran which was the main role for the prophet to deliver and explain if required, the verse above is telling us that the Quran is a reminder to Al Aalimeen, إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ , In Hua Illa Zikra Lil Aalimeen, see how all three translated the word Aalimeen:
# u have somehow transliterated the word as "aalimeen"...however, the arabic text says "aalameen"!
...and i couldn't find an instance (in ur post) where any of shakir, pickthall or ali has translated aalameen as knowledgeable!
Quote:
and in this case I'm not oinventing anything new as those on FM, I'm using the Quran and my Arabic knowledge to try to find out the right meaning, and when I fail I will leavve it to Allah and concede that all those easy to understand verses and the hard ones are from Allah, accoridng to 3:7
# 1 big concern here was reading aalameen as aalamain...
Quote:
there is no question that it is a duty on every Muslim to ponder upon the Quran
# true!
take care, bud...salam! (-:
Posted:
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 9:00 am
The Rook
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and somehow this reminds me of the new understanding of mecca/becca and djinn that some non-muslims had proposed...
# ...and, yups...i wasn't referrin to those blokes over at that forum...these things were proposed a long while back...wat v see der are mere rip-offs!
## take care, bud! (-:
Posted:
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 9:14 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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The wrote:
Quote:
Sure, however on my side, I concede that only Allah knows the meaning, I only tried and concluded that it can have many meanings and in such case I will leave it to Allah, I on't chose which one that applies in many verses, however in some verses the word meaning has to be one meaning and that is what I will take for myself
ok, why then you convince me that accoring to the context it should mean the worlds and not the knowledgeable?
# what all would agree on is that "knowledegable" is aalimeen!
do you agree on that or what?
The wrote:
aalameen, the plural of aalam,
did I oppose that?
The wrote:
is not the same as aalimeen; nor is "aalamain" the dual of aalim!
and how you can defrrentiate between all three if the letters are the exact same?
The wrote:
so, v have nothing to translate aalameen (and aalamain) as knowledgeable, esp given that the correct word for knowledgeable is aalimeen!
It is the same letters bro, now the context should be the only thing to determine the meaning
Quote:
Sure, however, you totally missed that many transltors translated the word as Knowlegeable, please check my long comment again,
-> Again the verse above is about the message of the Quran which was the main role for the prophet to deliver and explain if required, the verse above is telling us that the Quran is a reminder to Al Aalimeen, إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ ذِكْرَى لِلْعَالَمِينَ , In Hua Illa Zikra Lil Aalimeen, see how all three translated the word Aalimeen:
# u have somehow transliterated the word as "aalimeen"...however, the arabic text says "aalameen"![/quote]
how can you know that if the letters are the exact same?
The wrote:
...and i couldn't find an instance (in ur post) where any of shakir, pickthall or ali has translated aalameen as knowledgeable!
well, it is there where it was stated Aalimoon, because of the Irab
Look brother, if you ant to take it to be always the plural of Aalam then that is up to you, I consider the context and that is what matters at the end
Quote:
and in this case I'm not oinventing anything new as those on FM, I'm using the Quran and my Arabic knowledge to try to find out the right meaning, and when I fail I will leavve it to Allah and concede that all those easy to understand verses and the hard ones are from Allah, accoridng to 3:7
The wrote:
# 1 big concern here was reading aalameen as aalamain...
in some context it is very valid indeed, referiing to this world and the world of the hereafter
Quote:
there is no question that it is a duty on every Muslim to ponder upon the Quran
The wrote:
# true!
take care, bud...salam! (-:
but it seems mate that you want to take a word that may mean three things as always one thing
how about you reply to every verse in my comment?
cheers
Posted:
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 11:34 am
The Rook
Status: Age: 110 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Quote:
but it seems mate that you want to take a word that may mean three things as always one thing
...no probs with a word carryin different meanings, but to play around with the diacritical marks sans reason does not appeal to me! else, the theory about djinn carrying a different connotation in different verses is perfectly on!
Quote:
how about you reply to every verse in my comment?
...nopes, u were there at freeminds wen v had objected to: aalameen being knowledgeable; to djinn carrying different connotations...just to give 2 instances! i didn't concern myself wid dis kind of speculation then, and i wont concern myself now!
Quote:
16:61 Walaw yu-akhithu Allahu alnnasa bithulmihim ma taraka AAalayha min dabbatin walakin yu-akhkhiruhum ila ajalin musamman fa-itha jaa ajaluhum la yasta/khiroona saAAatan wala yastaqdimoona
shakir: And if Allah had destroyed men for their iniquity, He would not leave on the earth a single creature, but He respites them till an appointed time; so when their doom will come they shall not be able to delay (it) an hour nor can they bring (it) on (before its time).
...very odd, that! god would not leave a dabbatin on earth for the iniquities of humans!
## i wanted to clarify: whether u really were proposing a variant reading of the text; what knowledge do the knowledgeable possess! that done, i ve no issues with wat u believe!
# take care, bud! (-:
Posted:
Sun 10 Feb, 2008 8:51 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
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Salam mate
I'm busy working on sura 5 but the following caught my eyes:
The wrote:
nopes, u were there at freeminds wen v had objected to: aalameen being knowledgeable; to djinn carrying different connotations...just to give 2 instances! i didn't concern myself wid dis kind of speculation then, and i wont concern myself now!
can you please elaborate?
who is (v), is it myself?
also I'm not playing with any marks, the fact is clear the word has the same exact letters for the three meanings, and I have been always the same, if the mutiple meanings do not create a contradiction then I'm happy to consider all mutiple meanings as valid
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