Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject: Chopping off the hands of thieves
Hello all
Another discussion on FF web site:
All_Brains wrote:
Now let's talk about another inhumane punishment, however this time stated in the quran....
The amputation.....
Hello mate
I reject your words in bold above because so far you have not showed me an inhuman punishment to suggest looking at ANOTHER inhuman one
I will accept it like sort of this : another concern
Quote:
5:38 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise.
All_Brains wrote:
Your thoughts please!
You are really hammering me with too many concerns, it is like I'm working for you now, which is fine with me for the sake of the truth, however I have too many commitments that I even don't get enough daily sleep because of it, anyway it is still my pleasure to respond to your concerns on the expense of other things that I have to do.
This issue of cutting the hands of thieves is a complicated one, I'm actually a firm supporter to the understanding of a Quran aloner named Joe I even defended his understanding against some sunni guys on the aloners web site, yet they accused me that I'm a sunni, that is one of the reasons I left that place, on my own though I debated it with clear cut sunnis and they failed to prove me wrong, now I ask you to prove me wrong.
Let me first explain something very important, I claimed that I try to understand the Quran as literal as the context allows, now if we have a verse that is without a doubt a metaphor then to understand this verse literally you have to understand it as a metaphor
i.e. the literal meaning of a metaphor is a metaphor , so to take a metaphor as a metaphor actually means that the metaphor was taken literally
I hope you get my point
Now I agree that cutting the hands of thieves is inhuman and brutal, but firstly we need to prove beyond an atom weight of doubt that 5:38 means to chop off the hands of thieves, which in no way I see it the case, in fact the very next verse after 5:38 refutes the wrong understanding of chopping off the hands of thieves, this will be explained, but firstly I would like to explain that the Arabic word Aidd does not necessarily means the literal hands, this is commonly known within the Arabs, but that is not my evidence, my evidences are going to be always Quran and Bible nothing more and nothing less, the Quran used the word Aidd where it can't mean the literal hands numerous times at least over 50 times, I brought many examples to prove my case, so please be patient with me.
Let me start with a verse where Aidd must mean the physical hand:
Woe, then, to those who write the book with their hands and then say: This is from Allah, so that they may take for it a small price; therefore woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn. [The Quran ; 2:79]
فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ لِيَشْتَرُواْ بِهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُمْ مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ (79)
-> There is no doubt that within the above context the word must mean physical hands, anything else won't fit
Here is a verse where the word Aidd can't mean the physical hands:
And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own hands, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good. [The Quran ; 2:195]
وَأَنفِقُواْ فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ وَلاَ تُلْقُواْ بِأَيْدِيكُمْ إِلَى التَّهْلُكَةِ وَأَحْسِنُوَاْ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِنِينَ (195)
-> It is not like I will carry myself and throw it in the hell fire, it can't be, therefore the word Aidd in the above verse most likely means Deeds i.e. And spend in the way of Allah and cast not yourselves to perdition with your own DEEDS, and do good (to others); surely Allah loves the doers of good.
The word Aidd in a verb format actually means to support, to strengthento provide power and resources, here is an example where Allah is informing us that He strengthened Aiadda Jesus with the holy spirit:
We have made some of these messengers to excel the others among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank; and We gave clear miracles to Isa son of Marium, and strengthened him with the holy spirit. And if Allah had pleased, those after them would not have fought one with another after clear arguments had come to them, but they disagreed; so there were some of them who believed and others who denied; and if Allah had pleased they would not have fought one with another, but Allah brings about what He intends
Another example where the word as a verb means to strengthen:
And remember when you were few, deemed weak in the land, fearing lest people might carry you off by force, but He sheltered you and strengthened you with His aid and gave you of the good things that you may give thanks. [The Quran ; 8:26]
وَاذْكُرُواْ إِذْ أَنتُمْ قَلِيلٌ مُّسْتَضْعَفُونَ فِي الأَرْضِ تَخَافُونَ أَن يَتَخَطَّفَكُمُ النَّاسُ فَآوَاكُمْ وَأَيَّدَكُم بِنَصْرِهِ وَرَزَقَكُم مِّنَ الطَّيِّبَاتِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ (26)
Here is an example where the word can't mean physical hands rather Front or Before:
Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Everliving, the Self-subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great. [The Quran ; 2:255]
اللّهُ لاَ إِلَهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ الْحَيُّ الْقَيُّومُ لاَ تَأْخُذُهُ سِنَةٌ وَلاَ نَوْمٌ لَّهُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الأَرْضِ مَن ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ وَلاَ يُحِيطُونَ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنْ عِلْمِهِ إِلاَّ بِمَا شَاء وَسِعَ كُرْسِيُّهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ وَلاَ يَؤُودُهُ حِفْظُهُمَا وَهُوَ الْعَلِيُّ الْعَظِيمُ (255)
-> See : يَعْلَمُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَمَا خَلْفَهُمْ, He knows what is before them and what is behind them
Another example that the word means deeds and not the physical hands:
But how will it be when misfortune befalls them on account of what their hands have sent before? Then they will come to you swearing by Allah: We did not desire (anything) but good and concord. [The Quran ; 4:62]
فَكَيْفَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُم مُّصِيبَةٌ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ جَآؤُوكَ يَحْلِفُونَ بِاللّهِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَا إِلاَّ إِحْسَانًا وَتَوْفِيقًا (62)
-> See, it can't be your hands rather your deeds
Here is an example where the word must mean the physical hands:
O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful. [The Quran ; 5:6]
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا قُمْتُمْ إِلَى الصَّلاةِ فاغْسِلُواْ وُجُوهَكُمْ وَأَيْدِيَكُمْ إِلَى الْمَرَافِقِ وَامْسَحُواْ بِرُؤُوسِكُمْ وَأَرْجُلَكُمْ إِلَى الْكَعْبَينِ وَإِن كُنتُمْ جُنُبًا فَاطَّهَّرُواْ وَإِن كُنتُم مَّرْضَى أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ أَوْ جَاء أَحَدٌ مَّنكُم مِّنَ الْغَائِطِ أَوْ لاَمَسْتُمُ النِّسَاء فَلَمْ تَجِدُواْ مَاء فَتَيَمَّمُواْ صَعِيدًا طَيِّبًا فَامْسَحُواْ بِوُجُوهِكُمْ وَأَيْدِيكُم مِّنْهُ مَا يُرِيدُ اللّهُ لِيَجْعَلَ عَلَيْكُم مِّنْ حَرَجٍ وَلَكِن يُرِيدُ لِيُطَهَّرَكُمْ وَلِيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ (6)
-> It can't be anything else but the physical hands
Here is an important example where the word Aidd means Power/Control , Possession:
O Prophet! say to those of the captives who are in your hands: If Allah knows anything good in your hearts, He will give to you better than that which has been taken away from you and will forgive you, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [The Quran ; 8:70]
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ قُل لِّمَن فِي أَيْدِيكُم مِّنَ الأَسْرَى إِن يَعْلَمِ اللّهُ فِي قُلُوبِكُمْ خَيْرًا يُؤْتِكُمْ خَيْرًا مِّمَّا أُخِذَ مِنكُمْ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (70)
-> See, لِّمَن فِي أَيْدِيكُم مِّنَ الأَسْرَى, to those of the captives who are in your hands, i.e. to those of the captives who are in your Possession or to those of the captives who are under your Power/Control
Here the Angels using the word Aidd to refer to whatever before them (in front of them):
And we do not descend but by the command of your Lord; to Him belongs whatever is before us and whatever is behind us and whatever is between these, and your Lord is not forgetful. [The Quran ; 19:64]
وَمَا نَتَنَزَّلُ إِلَّا بِأَمْرِ رَبِّكَ لَهُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِينَا وَمَا خَلْفَنَا وَمَا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ وَمَا كَانَ رَبُّكَ نَسِيًّا (64)
-> See, : لَهُ مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِينَا وَمَا خَلْفَنَا وَمَا بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ, to Him belongs whatever is before us and whatever is behind us and whatever is between these
Same meaning of the word was used to refer to the Front:
And We have put a bar in front of them and a bar behind them, and further, We have covered them up; so that they cannot see. [The Quran ; 36:9]
وَجَعَلْنَا مِن بَيْنِ أَيْدِيهِمْ سَدًّا وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ سَدًّا فَأَغْشَيْنَاهُمْ فَهُمْ لاَ يُبْصِرُونَ (9)
-> See, وَجَعَلْنَا مِن بَيْنِ أَيْدِيهِمْ سَدًّا وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِمْ سَدًّا, And We have put a bar in front of them and a bar behind them
And again:
And when it is said to them: Guard against what is before you and what is behind you, that mercy may be had on you. [The Quran ; 36:45]
وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمُ اتَّقُوا مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَمَا خَلْفَكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ (45)
-> See, اتَّقُوا مَا بَيْنَ أَيْدِيكُمْ وَمَا خَلْفَكُمْ, Guard against what is before you and what is behind you
The same word is used to refer to Resources, Possession or Power:
And commemorate Our Servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of Power and Vision. [The Quran ; 38:45]
وَاذْكُرْ عِبَادَنَا إبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ أُوْلِي الْأَيْدِي وَالْأَبْصَارِ (45)
-> See, أُوْلِي الْأَيْدِي وَالْأَبْصَارِ, possessors of Power and Vision
There is no doubt that the word Aidd commonly means many things in addition to the literal meaning, now people will tell me: Ahmed, you are double faced?, I ask them why?, they tell me because now it is up to you to take the meaning of the word as a metaphor or as real, I say to them sorry lads, you got me wrong, because if there any hint in the context that the word must be taken as a metaphor then I have to take it as a metaphor, and in this case I consider myself that I took the context literally because that is what the context tells me to do which is to understand it as a metaphor, remember that the literal meaning of a metaphor is a metaphor, now let's look at 5:38-39 and we will see that the word Aidd in 5:38 should not be taken literally and chop the hands of a thief:
38: And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
39: But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [The Quran ; 5:38-39]
وَالسَّارِقُ وَالسَّارِقَةُ فَاقْطَعُواْ أَيْدِيَهُمَا جَزَاء بِمَا كَسَبَا نَكَالاً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ (38)
فَمَن تَابَ مِن بَعْدِ ظُلْمِهِ وَأَصْلَحَ فَإِنَّ اللّهَ يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ (39)
-> At a glance it seems that the thief must has his/her hands chopped off : وَالسَّارِقُ وَالسَّارِقَةُ فَاقْطَعُواْ أَيْدِيَهُمَا جَزَاء بِمَا كَسَبَا, i.e as translated by Shakir : And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, now the same verse is telling us that this is a punishment from Allah : نَكَالاً مِّنَ اللّهِ, i.e. an exemplary punishment from Allah, i.e. the punishment is from Allah not from the people, but does Allah really means to chop off their hands?, hmmmm, if 5:39 does not exit then most likely it does but 5:39 comes in the picture and refutes those sunni barbarians who only want to chop off hands, let's have a look:
-> فَمَن تَابَ مِن بَعْدِ ظُلْمِهِ وَأَصْلَحَ, i.e. But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself). i.e. the thief learnt the lesson and promised not to steal again, the thief even promised to do good deeds Aslah, what will be the reward for the thief who has just repented and reformed?: : فَإِنَّ اللّهَ يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ, i.e. then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful., now let me ask those barbarian sunnis who chop hands, how the hell this person can have a normal life after having one of his hands chopped?, come on 5:39 told us the following about the thief:
1) تَابَ, repented
2) وَأَصْلَحَ, and reformed,
i.e. started to do good deeds, i.e. started to become a good member in the society, I ask the barbarians again how this can happen while the person had his/her hand chopped?, how Allah says in 5:39 : But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. and the guy just had his hand chopped?
The barbarians will never be able to answer that, they just want to follow unfounded hadith that is man made and can never be confirmed, they like to see blood by chopping the hand of someone who might have been set up and may not be a real thief, a person who will have his/her hand copped will never escape the trauma for the rest of his/her life, they will hardly be able to find a decent job again and reform as 5:39 is telling us they reformed, as well many restrictions will come into effect in their life which can turn it into a nightmere with no chance of reforming, it is like I will chop your hand you bastard so you will not be able to steal again, I will force you to reform you bastard, hmmm, I ask, would that be classified as a reform if I force anyone to reform?, I mean is reforming a result of a freewill or the bloody force?
If the barbarians insist on chopping the hands then they better remove 5:39 from the Quran because it refutes their barbarian act fair and square, in fact another verse in the Quran refutes them fair and square, let's have a look, the verse is within the story of prophet Yusuf :
So when she heard of their sly talk she sent for them and prepared for them a repast, and gave each of them a knife, and said (to Yusuf): Come forth to them. So when they saw him, they deemed him great, and cut their hands (in amazement), and said: Remote is Allah (from imperfection); this is not a mortal; this is but a noble angel. [The Quran ; 12:31]
فَلَمَّا سَمِعَتْ بِمَكْرِهِنَّ أَرْسَلَتْ إِلَيْهِنَّ وَأَعْتَدَتْ لَهُنَّ مُتَّكَأً وَآتَتْ كُلَّ وَاحِدَةٍ مِّنْهُنَّ سِكِّينًا وَقَالَتِ اخْرُجْ عَلَيْهِنَّ فَلَمَّا رَأَيْنَهُ أَكْبَرْنَهُ وَقَطَّعْنَ أَيْدِيَهُنَّ وَقُلْنَ حَاشَ لِلّهِ مَا هَذَا بَشَرًا إِنْ هَذَا إِلاَّ مَلَكٌ كَرِيمٌ (31)
-> Now we have a weapon in the picture a Knife, وَآتَتْ كُلَّ وَاحِدَةٍ مِّنْهُنَّ سِكِّينًا, and gave each of them a knife, what 12:31 is telling us about the women that they cut their hands: وَقَطَّعْنَ أَيْدِيَهُنَّ, and cut their hands, almost the same exact words used in 5:38 regarding the thieves: فَاقْطَعُواْ أَيْدِيَهُمَا, cut off their hands, now I ask the barbarians, why the hell you don't take it that the women chopped off their hands completely as you want to do to the thieves while a knife is mentioned in here and no weapon was mentioned in 5:38?
Again they will never be able to answer this question, they will just do like the enemy of islam do and say but the prophet said If Fatima bint Mohammad stole, I will chop off her hands, now I ask the barbarians, please give me a conclusive evidence that the prophet peace be upon him said it about 1400 years ago beyond any atom weight of doubt.
Again they will fail to provide any evidences but the corrupt books of hadith and this will render their actions nothing but following conjectures, something the Quran warned them big times not to do
There is no doubt for me that 5:38 does not mean to chop off the hand of the thief, it can't be while 5:39 is in there, it can't be while 12:31 and 12:50 are in there, it can't be while Allah used the word Aidd numerous times to refer to something else but the physical hand, there is no doubt in my heart and my mind that 5:38 in conjunction with 5:39 must mean to cut off power and resources from those thieves, to freeze their possessions, to lock them up until they repent and reform, of course locking them up or freezing their possession is an example to cutting off power and resources from them until they REPENT AND REFORM as 5:39 is telling us and in that case Allah will forgive them and turn to them mercifully as 5:39 is telling us, consequently this thief now has everything to be a good person in the society and even help other thieves to beat the habit, I can't really see anything else fits to 5:38 while 5:39 is in place it just does not sum up if you chop off the hand.
Even if Joe and me are wrong (quite possible, why not?) then Joe and me will have a very good defence case if we will be allowed to defend ourselves on the JD, we will use 5:39 as the notion of our defence, we will be using the words of Allah against His own words if allowed and given the chance to defend ourselves, at the end of they day we still punished the thief we cut off power and resources of him/her, quite the contrary the barbarians will have no defence case if they are wrong, they have to use the corrupt words of human (hadith) against His words to prevail , and I will never believe that the humans words will prevail over Allah words, they will be held accountable for all those innocent thieves who got their hands chopped
I rest my case against the barbarian sunnis (the ones who chop hands)
Salam
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sun 02 Nov, 2008 10:58 am; edited 2 times in total
Posted:
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 6:41 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
All_Brains wrote:
Sure! Just keep in mind that the Quran claimed to be clear and easy to understand....
Hello
Absolutely not, the Quran never claimed as such, please prove it to me
In fact the Quran is not for under average person nor for the faint hearted,
All_Brains wrote:
Ahamad, I am going to make a strong statement here!
you are welcome
All_Brains wrote:
I think it defies Logic that the all wise and mighty while stating the punishment for a thieve use "cutting off the hands", as a metaphor for the following reasons:
well, I'm not talking about the other rules now, what I'm talking about is the rule we are discussing, now the two words Qataa and Aidd are both used as metaphors in the Quran hence there is nothing to prevent it from being a metaphor, in addition to that there is no such rule that says because the metaphor is not used in other laws it can't be used in the theft law,
All_Brains wrote:
1) The Quran did not use metaphors when stating clear cut rules like divorce, adulterer and inheritance...so why suddenly use it now??
so?, is it like under the belt of what?, again it does not mean because the metaphor is not used in other laws it can't be used in this law, 5:39 gives me every cause to take it as a metaphor
in addition to that if you look at the law of the adultery, you will read in 24:2 after stating the law of 100 lashes each Let not compassion move you in their case, La Takhzikum bihma Raafa now I ask you, which act that need to have that sentence of Let not compassion move you in their case, is it lashing someone 100 lashes or cutting of the hands?, I have to say both will need this sentence, and even cutting of the hands needs it more, however Allah never used it in 5:38, because I believe it does not mean cutting off their hands rather cutting off their power and resources hence we will not be moved by compassion towards them as it happened when we lash an adulterer 100 lashes
All_Brains wrote:
2) It's almost irresponsible from Allah to use a metaphor that can be easily be mis-understood by the vast majority of mankind, let alone Muslims, which will be responsible for so many crimes against humanity.
no it can't, because 5:39 came straight after it in addition to that the word Aidd was used in the Quran far more times to mean other things but the physical hand than the literal meaning of it
The word Qataa was even used more times to mean a metaphor to sort of Isolation than the literal meaning of it
All_Brains wrote:
If Allah does exist, i believe he'd be very embarrassed when challenged by all the believers, who would tell him on JD that they were only following his commands...
Allah can't be questioned in regard to His actions and laws, it is only going to be a defence if we will be allowed to say a word, so I will dismiss the above comment by you
All_Brains wrote:
3) Poetry isn't the right language when your deciding someone's fate or punishment.
well, that is not poetry, Qatt Aiddi actually means to cut resources and power
for example Qati Sabil means a Thug who robs the people walking in the streets, but the literal meaning of the two words is : The Cutter of the Road, the quran used it as such:
What! do you come to the males and commit robbery on the highway, and you commit evil deeds in your assemblies? But nothing was the answer of his people except that they said: Bring on us Allah's punishment, if you are one of the truthful. [The Quran ; 29:29]
أَئِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ الرِّجَالَ وَتَقْطَعُونَ السَّبِيلَ وَتَأْتُونَ فِي نَادِيكُمُ الْمُنكَرَ فَمَا كَانَ جَوَابَ قَوْمِهِ إِلَّا أَن قَالُوا ائْتِنَا بِعَذَابِ اللَّهِ إِن كُنتَ مِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ (29)
-> See, وَتَقْطَعُونَ السَّبِيلَ, and commit robbery on the highway
And Qati Rahhem means someone who does not care about his/her relatives and don't contact them, while the Literal meaning is The Cutter of the Ovary,
Then, is it to be expected of you, if ye were put in authority, that ye will do mischief in the land, and break your ties of kith and kin? [The Quran ; 47:22]
فَهَلْ عَسَيْتُمْ إِن تَوَلَّيْتُمْ أَن تُفْسِدُوا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَتُقَطِّعُوا أَرْحَامَكُمْ (22)
-> See, وَتُقَطِّعُوا أَرْحَامَكُمْ, and break your ties of kith and kin?
In fact the Quran used the following sentence a lot Taqataat bihim Al Asbab, i.e. they got confused and don't know what to do while the fact of the matter the Arabic wards means The causes by them have been cut
(On the day) when those who were followed disown those who followed (them), and they behold the doom, and all their aims collapse with them. [The Quran ; 2:166]
إِذْ تَبَرَّأَ الَّذِينَ اتُّبِعُواْ مِنَ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُواْ وَرَأَوُاْ الْعَذَابَ وَتَقَطَّعَتْ بِهِمُ الأَسْبَابُ (166)
-> See, وَتَقَطَّعَتْ بِهِمُ الأَسْبَابُ, and all their aims collapse with them.
Again the Quran used the word Qataa to mean break the covenant of Allah:
Those who break the covenant of Allah after its confirmation and cut asunder what Allah has ordered to be joined, and make mischief in the land; these it is that are the losers. [The Quran ; 2:27]
الَّذِينَ يَنقُضُونَ عَهْدَ اللَّهِ مِن بَعْدِ مِيثَاقِهِ وَيَقْطَعُونَ مَا أَمَرَ اللَّهُ بِهِ أَن يُوصَلَ وَيُفْسِدُونَ فِي الأَرْضِ أُولَئِكَ هُمُ الْخَاسِرُونَ (27)
-> See, وَيَقْطَعُونَ مَا أَمَرَ اللَّهُ, Those who break the covenant of Allah
Indeed in over 30 other locations the word Qataa' was used metaphorically and that is far more than it was used literally
Would you consider that both words Qataa' and Aidd were used metaphorically more than literally in the Quran a coincidence?
All_Brains wrote:
4) Same punishment was used in Judasm, so not a strange thing to that area of the world.
Indeed it was stated in the OT but I can't take the OT nor the NT for granted, exactly like the Hadith, I have good excuses to present to Allah inshallah on my account day if I'm allowed, I do respect all three books, the OT the NT and the Hadith but I can't deny the fact that all three are humanly corrupt
All_Brains wrote:
5) I know you don't believe in Hadith when not in line with Quran, but since 95% of Muslims believe in the literal word of Quran, the many hadiths, Sunna and Siyrah supports that chopping off the hands was practised when the prophets lived and on some ocassion he actually ordered the punishment!
well, you can not prove it really, I call this hearsay, or conjectures, and I follow neither, I only follow the Quran and that is good enough for me to use in my defence case if the God of the Quran exits and allows me to defend myself, I'm not going to mock around with hearsay, conjectures and corrupt books
All_Brains wrote:
Languages share many common factors. (Aid) means hand in Arabic and from that word you can get verbs like (Aidda) support...
Of course
All_Brains wrote:
In English you can use hand as a noun or verb...
Give me your hand (literal hand)
I have handed the book to the library (Deliver, give or submit)
Could you please give me a hand witn this? (Help or support)
You should understand my argument with ease then, well it was not like a coin that I tossed or somethin, 5:39 gives me all the reasons to take 5:38 as a figure of speech as well the use of the two words Qataa and Aidd were far more metaphorically than literally in the Quran
All_Brains wrote:
When you use (Aidda) as support, it will be understood that way, but the Quran did not use that word in the alleged verse....It used hands as a noun, and used cut off as a verb! I really fail to see the metaphor here!
Of course the word is used as noun and the action applied on that noun the verb is to cut:, i.e. to cut their resources, their resources must be a noun it is called in grammar Maaful Bihi
I can see all the sense in it therefore we may agree to disagree
All_Brains wrote:
Will Ahamd I can see clearly your approach, which is directing the meaning to be that of a metaphoric nature, however I strongly disagree due the reasons above...
And I strongly disagree with you too because of 5:39 and the many other logical reasons I stated
All_Brains wrote:
In addition the word used (Aidiyahuma) means their hands both (the male and female thief)
so?
The resources of both the male and female thief, possibly they got these resources from theft, don't you reckon?
All_Brains wrote:
in conjuction with verb cut off and the use of (as punishment) shows beyond doubt that the meaning was not a figure of speech!
There is no way that your use of word NO DOUBT applies, I say both of what we say is doubtful, hence the argument must be dropped because remember my deal, it has to be beyond any atom weight of doubt, in our argument though I presented many quranic evidences and continue to do so while you produced non therefore what you say is actually more doubtful than what I say, it can't be even 50:50
All_Brains wrote:
Ahamd...Surah 5:39 was never a subsititution for the punishment!
I never said that verse 5:39 was a substitution for the punishment rather it is the outcome of the punishment, no wonder the verse came straight after 5:38 and this outcome is clear from 5:39, if the thief repents and reforms then he/she can be back to normal life and their resources must be given back to them after paying asny penalty or cost if possible
All_Brains wrote:
In all Allah's punishment, repentance was always required to avoid the hell-fire....otherwise, if this was a criteria for not cutting off the hands, I am sure every criminal would declare repentance.
Excuse me bro, a crime like murder in the Quran is more gruesome than theft yet Allah allowed provisions to let the murderer free without paying with his life obviously Allah knows that no more chances given if we kill the murderer that is why He allowed provisions with murder, he even forgave Moses who murdered another person
You nor the sunni can't convince me that Allah will order cutting the hands of a thief and at the same time give him the opportunity to repent and reform after paying the penalty of cutting one of the most important organ if not the most that a human needs for the tough struggle in this testing life, it can't fit bro and does not comply with my simple life law which is : 1 + 1 = 2
However you will have a very strong argument if 5:39 is not there as well the two words Qataa and Aidd were not used metaphorically than literally in the Quran that is why what you say and what the sunni say is very much doubtful, indeed what I say is very less doubtful and complies with the main message of the Quran that Allah is The merciful which He said about Himself in 5:39 as well
All_Brains wrote:
In Quran, repentance was never enough to stop the punishment after the crime has been committed!
Actually you are wrong, because the Quran tells us the contrary:
But Allah was not going to chastise them while you were among them, nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness. [The Quran ; 8:33]
وَمَا كَانَ اللّهُ لِيُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَأَنتَ فِيهِمْ وَمَا كَانَ اللّهُ مُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَهُمْ يَسْتَغْفِرُونَ (33)
-> See how you got it wrong : وَمَا كَانَ اللّهُ مُعَذِّبَهُمْ وَهُمْ يَسْتَغْفِرُونَ[b/], [b] nor is Allah going to chastise them while yet they ask for forgiveness.
Also forgiving a sin will never be logical if the price is paid, that is why 5:39 irrefutably refutes the wrong understanding by the sunni and the enemy of islam to 5:38
All_Brains wrote:
As for your comment : how the hell this person can have a normal life after having one of his hands chopped?
All_Brains wrote:
That's exactly the point....The punishment is severe but not uncommon for that era...It lacks wisdom, vision or mercy...beacuse it's not from God, it's man made....as simple as that!
Mate, as I told you that assuming it means chopping off the hands, I believe I provided enough evidences from the Quran that it means something else other than that, you are only resorting to history, hearsay and some other things, I'm using only the Quran to show you that the Quran most likely didn't mean what other humans want me to believe or what they used to practice for hundreds of years, them doing it for hundreds of years does not make their understanding right, let me give you a logical example:
The Christians in the eyes of Muslims are ignorant, the Muslims claim that the Christians follow conjectures that Jesus is the son of god, now a Muslim goes to a Christian and informs him that he is ignorant and Jesus can't be the son of god, the devote Christian straight away will accuse the Muslim of being ignorant and in no way he will take what the Muslim said for granted, for him Jesus will stay the son of god, he was raised that way, noting strange really, now apply this on the Muslim guy, the Muslim guy was raised to believe that the Quran says chop off the hands, the Muslim was raised to believe that the prophet chopped off hands, exactly as the Christian was raised to believe that Luke, Mark, John and Mathew believed that Jesus was the son of god, the Muslims were raised to believe that the Quran says chop of hands, exactly as the Christians were raised to believe the Bible says Jesus is the son of god, now the poor me can use their Bible and their Quran to prove them damn wrong, can you see the similarities mate?
But there is something they are not similar in, this thing is the hatred between Satan and the Muslims, according to the Quran Satan does not need to do anything more to the Christians, he has done them indeed, therefore his main enemy are the Muslims I'm talking according to the Quran consequently what he said will happen in the Quran should happen which is flaw the shit out of them and make them raised to believe things that were never true but it seems to them very true, this is actually stated in the Quran as well, Satan in the process of doing the Muslims exactly as he finished doing the Christians and others, no wonder you will see a lot of flaws in the Muslims, they can fight that flaw by sticking to the Quran, but what they do is stick to some flawed and corrupt human words which Satan is exploiting very well and we can see how it is dividing them and making them kill each other, again all this non sense if you want to call it non sense is stated in the Quran.
Therefore I won't accept your argument that they are doing it for years makes truthful because this does not make it truthful exactly as Jesus being a son of god is not truthful
All_Brains wrote:
They will simply tell that you don't need a hand to be a good person still, you can still pray, fast and do good deeds...Besises the punishment would have taken some from the hell-fire torture...
of course you don't need hands to be a good person, but seeing your hand being chopped is enough of a mark that you are an ex thief, who will employ you then?, and who will employ a disabled person?, no question that life will be tougher and that person will end begging in the streets, indeed this is what you see in the flawed Muslim countries like SA, the ex thieves are beggars in the streets, their life has been ruined and they lost a lot for a decent life where they can serve Allah and teach others not to steal, that is what repent and reform means for me in 5:39
All_Brains wrote:
They will also declare that your are a kafir, beacuse you are denying the word and rules of Allah, even though it did not make sense to you!
screw them, this is between me an Allah and will not stop me from saying what I see truthful, if they are sure of what they say then they bring the Arabic Quran and prove me wrong, any hadith can't be admissible even if it is true. We are talking God words not human words
All_Brains wrote:
Different context Ahmad.
But same words
Bro, the Quran is nothing but words, logically speaking, do you agree?
If so then both context suggest cutting the hands literally, do you agree?
If so, then I got the sunni red handed, do you agree?
All_Brains wrote:
The above Yusuf story is a naration of incident that actually happened, it had details...there was a specific weapon used...When you tell a story and want to be truthful, you can always specify what exactly happened...
Y A, has no regard whatsoever in my eyes, I have looked thoroughly at his work and unfortunately for him a child who speaks English and Arabic will do a far better job than what he did
Look a child will know that the Arabic word Kawkab should be translated to Planet, mister Yusuf Ali though insisted that a Kawkab is a Star, and this is enough for me to disregard most of his work
All_Brains wrote:
But when you talk about a Hypothetical that may or may not happen, you can't go into specific as long as the end result is achieved....The hands are still cut off with the use of knives, sword or even axes!
fine, but only if 5:39 is not in the Quran
All_Brains wrote:
You have a good heart and a sound mind and you refuse to believe in such absurdity....however,
Mate, I don't believe in this not because I have a good heart, even with a very rough heart as long as I have a sound mind then 5:39 tells me that it is cutting of power and resources from the thieves and give them a chance to repent and reform, if they do then back to normal life, if they don't they continue to cut power and resources from them, sort of lock them up
All_Brains wrote:
you are now tailoring the Quran to fit with your own standards, which I may add...pretty good once!
No way, if 5:39 is not there then I will be tailoring it, but because it is there, I can't be tailoring it, in fact I believe with the existence of 5:39 the sunni are tailoring the Quran according to Satan standards
All_Brains wrote:
Thanks you Ahmad....you have shown everyone in FFI beyond doubt now that you are agood human being and fight (in a peaceful way) for what you genuinly believe in...to the extent that you would actually question Allah on JD that your sins were due to his unclarity revealing his words!
Not really to His un-clarity, rather to the limited knowledge He gave me that I could not crack it, indeed you need the knowledge to crack the Quran, the Quran is never easy nor it said as such about itself
All_Brains wrote:
You said...we will be using the words of Allah against His own words
This shows beyond doubt that you still find stuff that contradicts itself..
No, I only shows me being dumb and not having the required knowledge that made me fail to understand the message not to tell Him that His words were contradictory (God forbids)
All_Brains wrote:
The fact that you have now imgained God as a person that you can argue with,
Not really, I only look at Him as the ultimate Judge who is going to be 100% fair, not even 99.9999%
now I didn't say argue, I only said, defend my mistake that I will admit on the spot if that is the case, in the Quran it is stated that some will be allowed to talk but only after permission is given and as you can see that I stressed IF I'M ALLOWED TO DEFEND MYSELF
All_Brains wrote:
as you believe that there is some sort of failure or confusion because of the unclear words of God, shows me that we don't talk to God...we talk to ourselves!
not really bro, it's the failure and confusion on my side because I wan not given the required knowledge to understand His words possibly I didn't deserve it, now according to the Quran use of the two words, it has to be a metaphor in conjunction with 5:39, this makes the issue clear for me but I know for others it will look complicated that is due to the long years of brain wash and programming
All_Brains wrote:
You are a good man Ahamd...So far you don't want to beat your wife,
The Quran has given me two other options that I may not even use and just divorce her and look for more sexier and beautiful woman, someone like me don't really need to exercise my right to do these options, it is not going to be a sin if I don't do it
All_Brains wrote:
you don't want to kill the apostates,
The Quran gave an example of those who believed, then disbelieved, if the Quran say kill them when they disbelieved then it should be the end of story but the Quran went on and said, then they believed then disbelieved then increased in disbelief, tells me without an atom weight of doubt that they should not be killed when they disbelieved for the first time, or what do you think?
All_Brains wrote:
You don't want to kill the adulterer
That is what 24:2 said, not me, it only said lash both of them 100 lashes and a group of believers should witness their punishment
All_Brains wrote:
and You don't want to chop off the hands of thieves....
5:39 refutes those who says 5:38 means to chop off the hands of the thieves
All_Brains wrote:
To the majority of the Muslim world....you are not a true Muslim! My friend...
I don't give a fluke bro, it is only in the eyes of Allah that matters and I will know that on my death day, no one on earth can know that indeed possibly even myself, I can only do my best and stick to Allah words to the best of my knowledge that He gave me
Salam
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sun 02 Nov, 2008 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Sun 19 Nov, 2006 11:45 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
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Post subject:
Quote:
Absolutely not, the Quran never claimed as such, please prove it to me. In fact the Quran is not for under average person nor for the faint hearted,
All_Brains wrote:
44.58 - And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language only that they may heed.
So, Allah gives us certain inherited IQ, then punishes us for not understanding his wisdom, which required above average IQ????????
Hello mate
Of course I knew in advance that you will bring one of those verses, but please read the Arabic verse again, does it say we made the Quran easy for every one?, not it does not, it only say that the Quran was made to be easy on the prophet tongue, not everyone's tongue, also mentioning the tongue clearly means that the verse highlights that the prophet tongue was used as a media for delivery to other people and indeed that is how it was delivered, therefore it was made easy for him to remember it, 44:58 never ever said that Allah made the Quran easy for everyone, in fact 3:7 tells us that there are verses in the Quran that no human will understand.
I possibly know what verse you will come next with if you are going to dispute my claim that the Quran is not easy to understand
All_Brains wrote:
How fair is Allah if this is true? Or any God for that matter.
Even if He is not fair, can the creatures do anything about it?
Of course they can't
The Quran tells us that Allah can't be questioned in regards to what He does:
He cannot be questioned concerning what He does and they shall be questioned. [The Quran ; 21:23]
لَا يُسْأَلُ عَمَّا يَفْعَلُ وَهُمْ يُسْأَلُونَ (23)
-> See, that is why I can't answer your question, however regardless He is fair or not, at the end of the J day I won't be able to do anything about it nor any other creature can for that matter
All_Brains wrote:
We owe our debating and understanding abilities to our intelligence, which we have no control or say on...we were born that way!
We could have been also born with below average IQ.....Where would that leave us????
As far as I know, Allah teaches those who are sincere in looking at His messages and want to learn it then obey it, only then Allah can make any individual understands His messages in any language that message was revealed in
All_Brains wrote:
As a native Arabic Speaker and a Linguist, I challenge you to show me in any written text in the Quran or outside of the Quran, where "Qatt Aiddi"
these two words together were mentioned to express the meaning of cut resources????[/b]
Yes I can and indeed I did, 5:38 means to cut off resources
Don't forget that I provided many Quran evidences to support my argument and you supplied no evidences so far to support the argument of other books but the Quran
All_Brains wrote:
I really don't see here how would 5:39 refute 5:38.....
in the other thread by darth, another member have seen it with ease, it is not like the thief will have a new hand grown instead of the chopped one, indeed 5:39 refutes years of flaws and wrong understandings, what puzzles me though that it is clear as light for a child to understand it, you steal and get caught then we lock you up, take your money and give you a chance to repent and reform and if so then Allah will turn mercifully to that reformed thief and the thief can restore a normal and righteous life again, chopping his/her hand means the end of normal life for that sinner, therefore they better kill him/her after they chop the hands
All_Brains wrote:
Have you ever thought about a thief who steals something and never get caught! Don't you think that 5:39 actually cover that scenario rather!?
Not really because of the Fa at the start of 5:39 means the sentence in 5:39 is a continuity to what was stated in 5:38, in fact the thief was never mentioned in 5:39 but as a Damir in the sentence Allah Yatoob Allaihi
Also if you read all the tafsir books regarding 5:38 and 5:39 (Try the following: Ibn Kathir, Tabary, Qurtubi, Jallaleen) you will see for yourself how confused they were and how they argued together regarding many conflicting stories that suppose to be about the prophet during his days, therefore their understanding can't be taken for granted, in fact it is a clear cut case of confusion on their side, while the matter of the fact remains, if you read 5:38 and 5:39 together then we should only cut power and resources of the thieves otherwise 5:39 will stand no sense
All_Brains wrote:
LOL....You'd make a very good Lawyer!!!
LOL, actually I regret I never chased that field, too old now to do it, however I represented myself in many cases in different countries and I always impressed the judges and they based their decisions on what I said not what the prosecutors said LOL, I love all these things I have been through mate, when I remember it now I laugh while there was a lot of pressure associated with it
Now that guy sense of something weird will sky rocket when he reads this, LOL
All_Brains wrote:
Although I disagree with your 50%, I wouldn't mind at all of the Muslim world had understood that way....Your way....the nice way!
Of course you have to disagree with my 50% as I disagree with your 50% otherwise it won't be 50:50, if we agree together it will be 100:0, I just needed this spin bro, lol
All_Brains wrote:
Again, show me these two words together in any Arabic texts with the meaning you advocate!
5:38
All_Brains wrote:
Are you not a Sunni??
Of course not bro and never been in my 41 years of life
I'm only a Muslim
Quote:
The Christians in the eyes of Muslims are ignorant, the Muslims claim that the Christians follow conjectures that Jesus is the son of god, now a Muslim goes to a Christian and informs him that he is ignorant and Jesus can't be the son of god, the devote Christian straight away will accuse the Muslim of being ignorant and in no way he will take what the Muslim said for granted, for him Jesus will stay the son of god, he was raised that way, noting strange really, now apply this on the Muslim guy, the Muslim guy was raised to believe that the Quran says chop off the hands, the Muslim was raised to believe that the prophet chopped off hands, exactly as the Christian was raised to believe that Luke, Mark, John and Mathew believed that Jesus was the son of god, the Muslims were raised to believe that the Quran says chop of hands, exactly as the Christians were raised to believe the Bible says Jesus is the son of god, now the poor me can use their Bible and their Quran to prove them damn wrong, can you see the similarities mate?
All_Brains wrote:
This line of thinking shows me that according to you the word of God had been corrupted in the OT and NT by literally changing and editing it, while in Islam the word of Allah had been corrupted, due the mis-interpretation of its true meaning!!!!
Not really bro, Islam is corrupted because the Muslims left the unchanged divine Quran and followed the corrupt human hadith, following the corrupt hadith had huge impact on them, firstly they divided themselves into sects, then they started fighting with each other and ended with killing each other almost on a daily basis, and that is exactly how Iblis is doing them as he promised in the Quran, the Quran indeed exposes them, let me prove it to you and to them:
Firstly on the JD the prophet will expose his people who abandoned the Quran:
And the Messenger cried out: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing. [The Quran ; 25:30]
وَقَالَ الرَّسُولُ يَا رَبِّ إِنَّ قَوْمِي اتَّخَذُوا هَذَا الْقُرْآنَ مَهْجُورًا (30)
-> See, the prophet will cry and say: O my Lord! surely my people have treated this Quran as a forsaken thing.
For his people who committed the above crime, they were also warned not to divide their religion:
30: Then set your face upright for the religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation; that is the right religion, but most people do not know
31: Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer and be not of the polytheists
32: Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them [The Quran ; 30:30-32]
فَأَقِمْ وَجْهَكَ لِلدِّينِ حَنِيفًا فِطْرَةَ اللَّهِ الَّتِي فَطَرَ النَّاسَ عَلَيْهَا لَا تَبْدِيلَ لِخَلْقِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ الدِّينُ الْقَيِّمُ وَلَكِنَّ أَكْثَرَ النَّاسِ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ (30)
مُنِيبِينَ إِلَيْهِ وَاتَّقُوهُ وَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَلَا تَكُونُوا مِنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ (31)
مِنَ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا كُلُّ حِزْبٍ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُونَ (32)
-> Allah is telling the believers to do the following :set your face upright for the religion in the right state-- the nature made by Allah in which He has made men;
-> They should also do this:Turning to Him, and be careful of (your duty to) Him and keep up prayer, they were also warned to be one of those : and be not of the polytheists, those polytheists were described in the following verse:
-> Of those who divided their religion and became seas every sect rejoicing in what they had with them, a perfect description to the current state of the so called Quran believers, they are divided into many sects and every sect is : rejoicing in what they had with them, but they should be shocked because they were described in 30:31 as الْمُشْرِكِينَ, polytheists, this is a crime that can't be forgiven as the Quran told us, indeed they are Mushrikin, they were not happy and satisfied with Allah laws in the Quran so they chased other human laws to follow an association with Allah laws, i.e. they shirked. Just following Satan by dividing their religion is enough to warrant the charge of the horrific shirk crime, the prophet peace be upon him is not part of those Mushrikin, the prophet knew it at his days because he was told about it in the Quran:
Surely those who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did. [The Quran ; 6:150]
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُواْ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُواْ يَفْعَلُونَ (159)
-> See what Allah is telling Mohammed: Surely those who divided their religion into parts and became sects, you have no concern with them; their affair is only with Allah, then He will inform them of what they did.
That is why when you asked me if I'm a sunni, I was firm in my answer in fact I never claimed to be one even when I was a child while being aware that I'm a Muslim
All_Brains wrote:
Same end result...all three are corrupt.....same diff!
if you mean by all three are corrupt that the OT, NT and Hadith are corrupt then I agree with you, but if you meant the OT, NT and the Quran, then I have to disagree with you because in the last 1400 years the Quran stayed the same while the OT and the NT have went under many surgeries exactly as what happened to the recorded Hadith
Quote:
Not really to His un-clarity, rather to the limited knowledge He gave me that I could not crack it, indeed you need the knowledge to crack the Quran, the Quran is never easy nor it said as such about itself.
All_Brains wrote:
You were not given knowledge, you acquired it through hard work and brain squeezing..
Hmm, ok I will say it this way, I was found deserving to acquire knowledge then it was granted to acquire it, however the knowledge here is not what I learnt in this life about engineering, computers and other material things rather the knowledge about Allah, this is the best knowledge a human can have and it can only be acquired by Allah giving it to anyone and I have to tell you mate, knowing Allah is the hardest thing in life, it has to be man if this really a test as the Quran and the Bible claim, can all humans comprehend the testing environment around us?, of course many failed to do and just took it for granted, hence they failed to know that this test is really hard, actually the test is all about knowing Allah, this is the first commandment in the Bible and in the Quran
All_Brains wrote:
the only thing your were given is your IQ (potential), as you can actually shapen that through intellectuall exercies, just like the one we are having now!
Fine, I can use my IQ to create a program, to invent a car but can I use it to know Allah?,
No way bro, knowing Him well has to be granted from Him, and only to those who deserve it not for free mate, it is a tough test I can assure you, that is why stake must be really high
All_Brains wrote:
Can we have a 24 hours break, I am sure you can use that too! LOL!
Sure, I want to post a new trance album on FI and this alone take me as much to do.
All_Brains wrote:
Feel free to brain storm though, But I won't for now throw another topic at you....
Chat to you later....AB
I think I did with this comment
Take care
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sun 02 Nov, 2008 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 12:01 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
Good morning All_Brains
You stated earlier that a figure of speech can't be used in stating laws, here is 3 examples from the Quran showing Allah is using a figure of speech to state one of the most important laws in Islam, The interests
O ye who believe! Devour not usury, doubled and multiplied; but fear Allah; that ye may (really) prosper. [Quran ; 3:130]
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَأْكُلُواْ الرِّبَا أَضْعَافًا مُّضَاعَفَةً وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ (130)
-> See, لاَ تَأْكُلُواْ الرِّبَا, Devour not usury, the order actually means Don not EAT
Another law but not about interest rather about taking money from others unlawfully and knowingly:
And do not eat up your property among yourselves for vanities, nor use it as bait for the rulers, with intent that ye may eat up wrongfully and knowingly a little of (other) people's property. [Quran ; 2:188]
وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ أَمْوَالَكُم بَيْنَكُم بِالْبَاطِلِ وَتُدْلُواْ بِهَا إِلَى الْحُكَّامِ لِتَأْكُلُواْ فَرِيقًا مِّنْ أَمْوَالِ النَّاسِ بِالإِثْمِ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ (188)
-> See, وَلاَ تَأْكُلُواْ أَمْوَالَكُم بَيْنَكُم بِالْبَاطِلِ, And do not eat up your property among yourselves for vanities, then Allah added, لِتَأْكُلُواْ فَرِيقًا مِّنْ أَمْوَالِ النَّاسِ بِالإِثْمِ وَأَنتُمْ تَعْلَمُونَ ِ, with intent that ye may eat up wrongfully and knowingly a little of (other) people's property.
And again:
O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will: Nor kill (or destroy) yourselves: for verily Allah hath been to you Most Merciful! [Quran ; 4:29]
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَأْكُلُواْ أَمْوَالَكُمْ بَيْنَكُمْ بِالْبَاطِلِ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً عَن تَرَاضٍ مِّنكُمْ وَلاَ تَقْتُلُواْ أَنفُسَكُمْ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ بِكُمْ رَحِيمًا (29)
-> لاَ تَأْكُلُواْ أَمْوَالَكُمْ بَيْنَكُمْ بِالْبَاطِلِ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً عَن تَرَاضٍ مِّنكُمْ, [b O ye who believe! Eat not up your property among yourselves in vanities: But let there be amongst you Traffic and trade by mutual good-will[/b]
Therefore and based on the Arabic Quran, there is nothing that suggests the impossibility of using figures of speech when stating important laws
Take care
Last edited by AhmedBahgat on Sun 02 Nov, 2008 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted:
Tue 21 Nov, 2006 8:22 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
However we can show compassion and give them a chance to repent and reform, this compassion is warned against in the less punishment of flogging the adulterers 100 lashes in public as stated in 24:2, i.e. showing compassion to the thieves IS NOT AGAINST THE QURAN
In fact if you read the history, Omar Ibn Al Khatab stopped cutting the hands of thieves during the drought times where most people were desperate for food
Status: Age: 58 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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Post subject:
Quote:
You do not understand such law in the Quran, so you better stfu or your ignorance will be slammed hard
sword_of_truth wrote:
I'm just interested in the truth, so if I'm wrong, then I want to know. I'm not afraid of my ignorance being slammed hard.
Well, your ignorance is not about the law of cutting the hands of thieves is in the Quran, your ignorance is evident by you looking only at verse 5:38 without looking at verse 5:39 which talks about the same thing
First of all, I was actually a supporter to the wrong understanding by the free minders regarding their allegation that verse 5:38 does not mean to physically cut off the hands of thieves, however some time ago I had another look at the Arabic words used and ended up by rejecting such understanding, therefore I totally concede that 5:38 means to physically cut off the hands of thieves, however with the existence of 5:39, the whole procedure of cutting off the hands of thieves is actually conditioned, the condition can easily be understood when reading 5:39, simply only the repeat offenders and malice thieves are the ones that should have such punishment applied to, I will elaborate later after reading what you have to say first
sword_of_truth wrote:
However, I do not think I am so ignorant,
Yes you are, this is because you think that anyone who is caught stealing should have his/her hands chopped without looking at what led to such theft, and without giving the thieve a chance to repent and amend, this is what 5:39 says
sword_of_truth wrote:
after all. I am an ex-muslim.
That is a lie, not a deliberate lie though, rather a lie that is the result of your confusion, you have never been a Muslim, you do not even understand what being a Muslim means, the highest you have been is a mere believer who believed in the God of the Quran, now instead of working on your belief to take to the ultimate level as a Muslim, you went down the gutter with your fellow kafirs instead of going up, i.e. instead of becoming a Muslim after becoming a Mumin, you became a kafir, well done
Being a Muslim does not happen by birth or over night, you need years to achieve it and you have never achieved it, so do not fool yourself
sword_of_truth wrote:
I almost never heard any of the muslims I know attempting to deny that thieves are supposed to have their hands cut off.
There is, www.free-minds.org and I was supporting their crap for about a few months then realized how wrong they are.
sword_of_truth wrote:
I have not heard of any scholars denying it, either.
That is irrelevant now because I do not deny it either
sword_of_truth wrote:
That is the only solution I would accept.
And who the hell are you?
Accept it then what?
Try to be a Muslim again?
No pal, we do not want you to try to be a Muslim, we want you to sink in your world of Kufr, what I will say regarding this issue of cutting the hands of repeated offenders thieves is the result of intense study that went for months if not years
sword_of_truth wrote:
No one's hand should be cut off under any circumstances.
B S, a repeated offender who has no reason to steal and perpetrate on the properties of others, and after been given many chances must have his/her hand chopped off to protect the innocent people
sword_of_truth wrote:
So, if you believe that hands should be cut off at all, then we have a difference of opinion.
Yes, I do, and my opinion is based on the Quran alone, not on your man made B S that is called hearsay hadith
Try to refute it when you read it
sword_of_truth wrote:
This punishment violates my moral standards. Period.
And a repeated offender thief who has no reason to steal and perpetrate on the properties of others, and after been given many chances must have his/her hand chopped off to protect the innocent people. Period.
sword_of_truth wrote:
No if's, and's, or but's.
Ifs, ands and buts are in your man made Barbie world of hadith, verses 5:38 and 5:38 are clear as light and even other verses should make it clearer as I will show later, try to refute instead of supporting a malice thief
sword_of_truth wrote:
There is no way for these moral standards to be argued away by "understanding". It's completely non-negotiable.
Then you need to change the current laws on many western countries who apply capital punishment which is far worse than cutting a hand, are you nuts or what?
sword_of_truth wrote:
Furthermore,
No further more, you talk emotionally and not practically, now if you do not want your hands to be chopped off, simply do not insist on stealing the property of innocent civilians
sword_of_truth wrote:
this leads me to say it is a moral obligation for all human beings to oppose said punishment. Advocate it if you wish, but only at the cost of my respect, and the respect of so many other good people. The only proof I can offer in this regard is this:
If you can succeed watching that video and making yourself like hand cutting, you are free to dismiss the validity of my system of morality. Such an individual probably lacks the ability to empathize with other people or is simply in denial about the brutality of their religion. Inability to empathize with the feelings of other people is a trait found in the brains of murderers and other criminals. I personally have NOT succeeded in making myself like hand-cutting, so I am not free to dismiss the validity of my system of morality. If Allah doesn't like that, then I apologize to him, assuming he exists (humoring Him infinitely for a moment), but why did he create me this way, then? It's Allah's own fault that I don't like his punishment.
Of course, some polls reveal that many muslims are uncomfortable with this draconian punishment. This is very revealing. Why would Allah instill an innate distaste for his magnificent and just punishment in so many of us? In my own case, when I heard of it, while still a muslim, I literally did not believe that any muslims would advocate such a punishment, until it proved to be so.
Even if you do completely deny that Islam prescribes this punishment, there is still the problem of why Allah would put it in the Quran at all, causing so many muslims to interpret it as an actual command that they must physically carry out, resulting in the amputation of countless thieves throughout Islamic history. So, at a minimum, it cannot be denied that this verse has inspired significant human suffering. If the Quran doesn't mean what it says, then at a minimum this shows that it is dangerous. Also, it would mean Allah is either cruel or incompetent, if he allows muslims even the possibility of interpreting his words in this way.
Having said that, if muslims can find a way to deny this penalty across the board for all thieves, then they will succeed in meeting my demands on this particular issue, and I would concede that I am refuted. I would certainly support them and wish them luck if this is the path they choose. However, it would be fighting quite an uphill battle with the commonly accepted interpretations. To reform Islam this way might not be impossible in principle, but I believe it would be quite impractical.
Next, I should say a word about possible defenses for those that DO approve of hand-cutting. What are the excuses?
First of all, there is the following verse in the Quran, saying that Allah forgives those who repent. Perhaps, this could be used to say that if someone repents, they would not be subject to amputation. If we grant the authenticity of the Hadith, this argument can easily be disposed of:
"Narrated Aisha:
The Quraish people became very worried about the Makhzumiya lady who had committed theft. They said, "Nobody can speak (in favor of the lady) to Allah's Apostle and nobody dares do that except Usama who is the favorite of Allah's Apostle. " When Usama spoke to Allah's Apostle about that matter, Allah's Apostle said, "Do you intercede (with me) to violate one of the legal punishment of Allah?" Then he got up and addressed the people, saying, "O people! The nations before you went astray because if a noble person committed theft, they used to leave him, but if a weak person among them committed theft, they used to inflict the legal punishment on him. By Allah, if Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad committed theft, Muhammad will cut off her hand.!"
--Bukhari Volume 8 Book 81 Number 779
This reveals that repentence does not remove the punishment (the woman in question repents and is forgiven AFTER the punishment has been carried out). It only removes the punishment in the Hereafter if you happen to be a muslim. Incidentally, this is another point in favor of my earlier question of why Allah would instill a distaste in us for such a punishment. The Quran-only approach offers a possible solution to this problem, but I won't get into why I think that approach will not work here. There is not only the Hadith, but the interpretation that was accepted by muslims for hundreds of years.
Even if repentence removes the penalty, I would still not be completely satisfied. It would indeed be stupid of the thief not to repent and save their hand (assuming this repentence extends also to non-muslims), but it still would be unjust to cut off their hand if they refused to repent. There is yet another problem. In this case, the punishment is too light. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that theft should go unpunished. So, we have the problem of what punishment to give to the repentant thief.
Finally, let's consider the defense of the punishment itself. It must be said that I agree with these excuses. However, they only lessen the magnitude of the injustice, not fix the injustice. First of all, the thief cannot be punished for stealing something trivial. Hadith suggest that a non-trivial, but not huge theft is required. Secondly, the if the thief is hungry, say, he can be excused for stealing a loaf of bread. Finally, it is argued that the punishment is merciful because it prevents the thief from stealing in the first place. The end justifies the means, there. Theft is a not such a horrific crime, although it is clearly wrong. It is taking away a mere piece of material wealth from someone. I would pay any amount of money or possessions to keep my hand from being cut off. A man's own hand is one of the most useful and precious things in his life. No price tag can be put on it, hence no amount of theft could ever be great enough to warrant cutting it off. It is true that there could be some good achieved by the punishment, but only at an immense cost, much greater than the good it achieves, to my mind. A final and ludicrous argument is to accuse other people of having even more unjust punishments. This is simply an admission of guilt and can be dismissed. Pointing to someone else's crime is hardly a valid defense against an accusation towards yourself.
Now let me show the ignorant kafirs bound to hell how such punishment in the Quran is conditioned:
38: And the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a reward for what they have earned, a deterrent from Allah; and Allah is all-Mighty, all-Wise.
39: But whoever repented after his injustice and amended, then surely Allah will turn to him, indeed Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. [Al Quran ; 5:38-39]
وَالسَّارِقُ وَالسَّارِقَةُ فَاقْطَعُواْ أَيْدِيَهُمَا جَزَاء بِمَا كَسَبَا نَكَالاً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ (38)
-> In verse 5:38 we clearly read the punishment of theft: And the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a reward for what they have earned, this is clearly a punishment from Allah as stated in the same verse: a deterrent from Allah , i.e. it is not a deterrent from humans, i.e. only Allah is the one who can rule regarding it, and indeed, He ruled as follow, the next verse 5:39 clearly tells us an important rule from Allah regarding the theft: But whoever repented after his injustice and amended, then surely Allah will turn to him, indeed Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. , i.e. Allah will forgive those who stole if they repented and amended, let me give the ignorant an example:
1) A thief is been caught for the first time,
2) That thief is facing the cutting of his/her hand
3) However if that thief declared his repentance and confirmed as such by amending what he/she has done, then the thief should be forgiven as Allah stated and the punishment from Allah should be put on hold
4) If the ex thief never stole again, then he/she was honest in their repentance and amendments, and they still have their hand intact and can go on with their life as normal
5) If that ex thief stole again, then he/she was a jerk who only wants to hurt the community, as well he/she lied in their repentance and amendments
6) The above is only based on the common sense that under normal circumstance no one should steal anything
7) However some people may be forced to steal, for example, they can not find a job and need to bring food on the table, under such circumstances, the cutting of the hands should never be implemented because the malice intention is not there, in effect the law enforcer are free to show compassion to the thieve based on the circumstances that led to their crime, this is because the verses above never conditioned Not to show compassion, as we read in a lesser punishment of flogging the adulterers:
(As for) the woman who commits adultery and the man who commits adultery, flog each of them a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement. [Al Quran ; 24:2]
الزَّانِيَةُ وَالزَّانِي فَاجْلِدُوا كُلَّ وَاحِدٍ مِنْهُمَا مِائَةَ جَلْدَةٍ ۖ وَلَا تَأْخُذْكُمْ بِهِمَا رَأْفَةٌ فِي دِينِ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ تُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَالْيَوْمِ الْآخِرِ ۖ وَلْيَشْهَدْ عَذَابَهُمَا طَائِفَةٌ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (2)
-> See, the similarity between the 24:2 and 5:38:
1) Both are talking about a male and a female who commit a specific sin:
(As for) the woman who commits adultery and the man who commits adultery , 24:2
And the man who steals and the woman who steals , 5:38
2) Both are stating the punishment for each crime:
flog each of them a hundred stripes , 24:2
cut off their hands as a reward for what they have earned , 5:38
However, there a very significant condition regarding the punishment of the adulterers:
and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, 24:2
I.e. there is nothing to prevent us from showing pity for the thieves, not randomly of course, rather based on each thief individual circumstances
And that should be enough to slam dunk your ignorance
Posted:
Sun 02 Nov, 2008 12:00 pm
Windsor Pawn
Status: Age: 38 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Nov 25, 2007
Posts: 69 Location: Canada
Post subject:
Quote:
That is a lie, not a deliberate lie though, rather a lie that is the result of your confusion, you have never been a Muslim, you do not even understand what being a Muslim means, the highest you have been is a mere believer who believed in the God of the Quran, now instead of working on your belief to take to the ultimate level as a Muslim, you went down the gutter with your fellow kafirs instead of going up, i.e. instead of becoming a Muslim after becoming a Mumin, you became a kafir, well done
Being a Muslim does not happen by birth or over night, you need years to achieve it and you have never achieved it, so do not fool yourself
Did not I tell it was one of their oldest and most popular tricks? He was deliberate.
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