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The
Rook
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member3:
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It's conjecture, but why circular?
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 Posted:
Fri 25 Dec, 2009 4:15 pm |
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The
Rook
Status:
Age: 110
Faith: Islam
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Zodiac:
Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
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Posted:
Fri 25 Dec, 2009 4:16 pm |
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The
Rook
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Age: 110
Faith: Islam
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Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
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member3:
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The way I see things is that when the message of God is given to a Prophet, it is like water pouring into a container. Whatever the form of the container, be it a glass, or a bottle, the water takes that shape, but its substance remains the same - it is still water.
Hence since the Prophet was from Mecca, he spoke Arabic, and the framework of ideas and examples given in the Quran are based upon this, it mentions tribes that we now would never have otherwise heard of from elsewhere. But the substance of what he is saying is constant regardless of culture.
Thus it really does not matter to me whether the Arabic he spoke was traditional Bedouin Arabic or christianised Syrian Aramaic. If there are Syrian influences, if some of the cultural references made in the Quran are from a Christian-Syrian-Aramaic context, this is only the shape of the cup, it does not affect the substance of the meaning of the Quran, which is the 'water' God pours into it.
In the case of the grapes/virgins example - of course this doesn't matter. The whole passage is only symbolic anyway - the Quran tells us so in 3:007
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He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah.
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If suicide bombers are disappointed in the afterlife, it's not going to be anything to do with food or sex. It'll be whether they find themselves in the right place or not.
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Posted:
Sun 27 Dec, 2009 7:39 pm |
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The
Rook
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| Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but an assertion requires more than just assumptions, which is what Christians (including "Luxenberg") fail to provide. |
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Sun 27 Dec, 2009 7:40 pm |
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AhmedBahgat
Site Admin
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Everybody is entitled to an opinion, but an assertion requires more than just assumptions, which is what Christians (including "Luxenberg") fail to provide.
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In regards to member3 metaphor about the message, I could not take that way, it is simply an invitation to manipulate the message while keeping the main core the same, i.e. there is only One God Whom we should worship
You may tell member 3 that the idea of one God is easy to understand and follow, what is hard to understand and follow is His message, therefore we should refer the message words to their literal meaning to avoid the conflict in understanding the message
Note for you mate: If the word meaning accomadates more than one meaning while the context also allows for more than one meaning then his metaphore may apply, but if the word has one meaning then to use the root method to make it mean something else then adjust the context to suit, this is what I totally reject and this is my main confilict with the free minders
It was also a conflict between us if you remember regarding the word Aalameen (the worlds), or Aalemeen (those who know)
the word meaning accomdates for more than one meaning literally, and under each literal meaning the context may be ok too, however I avoided the meaning of the worlds in a particular verse (that you know) to avoid the conflict of interest in raising prophet Muhhamed above all other prophets, as well the context of sending Muahmmed as a mercy for those who know is far stronger and logically valid than the context of sending Muhammed as a mecry to all the worlds
Again Muhammed cannot be a mercy for those who rejected his message, he must be a curse for them. As well he cannot be a mercy for animals and many other creatures in the worlds. In fact he cannot be even a mercy for the angels who are part of the worlds
Cheers
_________________
http://free-islam.com |
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Posted:
Mon 28 Dec, 2009 12:23 am |
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The
Rook
Status:
Age: 110
Faith: Islam
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Joined: Nov 26, 2006
Posts: 529
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I think he is aware that he has presented nothing to support the Christian "reading," and has agreed that it is conjecture and circular-reasoning, so I don't see anything pertinent which might need a remark.
About the aalameen-aalimeen conflict, is it 21:107 where you suggest that we read "aalimeen" instead of "aalameen"? |
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Posted:
Mon 28 Dec, 2009 7:55 pm |
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AhmedBahgat
Site Admin
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About the aalameen-aalimeen conflict, is it 21:107 where you suggest that we read "aalimeen" instead of "aalameen"?
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Yes, but we do not need to go through it again, I just wanted to explain my position in the past using the uy metaphor
My reasons is simply not to let the people think that Muhammed is above all other messengers from our prespective
Cheers
_________________
http://free-islam.com |
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Posted:
Tue 29 Dec, 2009 6:50 am |
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The
Rook
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Age: 110
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There is also a "technicality" to this: If the Quran is the recitation of Christian Scriptures, a Christian can very conveniently present himself as a Quranite or a "Quran-Aloner", and disseminate Christian themes with relative ease. A proclaimed Christian like "Luxenberg" presents his intention very obtusely, but the "technicality" allows for a very self-righteous way to evangelize.
Of course, that's not to say that this is the only means of dissimulation; I had come across a chick who talked about how Christians may call themselves "Muslims" to gain acceptance, because linguistically "Muslim" is a purely "secular" term. But I guess "Quran-Aloner" is a little more convenient. |
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Posted:
Fri 12 Feb, 2010 11:23 pm |
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The
Rook
Status:
Age: 110
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member4:
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I agree that Luxunberg is an idiot, but the relation between Quran and Qeryana isn't so easily dismissed. Another flaw in his reasoning is that Qeryana is distinctly Christian. But look at Qeryana Ha Kefa. Considering the casual usage of the word Quran within the Quran itself it's safe to say it was a familiar word for everyone.
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@member4:but the relation between Quran and Qeryana isn't so easily dismissed.
I didn't get that, buddy.
However, I came across a comment from somebody who states that a group of "Hanif Sabians" established an online Quranic community and has come to be known as Progressive Islam or Reform Islam. The guy states that though he was solicited earlier and contributed to the Quran translation of this group, he was later no longer welcome. The guy's apparently from a Jewish family. |
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Posted:
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 12:29 am |
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AhmedBahgat
Site Admin
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Invite him here mate, and let him know that he will be free on free islam as long as he does not mock Allah or anyone of His prophets
Cheers
_________________
http://free-islam.com |
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Posted:
Sat 13 Feb, 2010 6:52 am |
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